to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

JustWannaSay, I don't think that is as easy as that.
It would take a massive amount of willpower and ambition for a lot of people to see "light at the end of the tunnel", with failing schools and a bad homelife/surrounding area I can imagine that it could be nigh on impossible.

"BUT - they still have the choice of whether to be dragged down by drug-addict friends or whether to hang out with nicer people and make a better go of life" Hmm - do you know many 11 year olds? My DB was a graduate of DARE but peer pressure is a dangerous thing.
I'm not saying he shouldn't take responsibility - he has done - but children sometimes make bad decisions.

Sorry Riven - can you see I am firmly in pre-school world

You don't think going in the army is any better than living off benefits??? wow... I'm by that.

For me, it's never been about people who are trying to find work/earn more but are struggling. All my comments relate ONLY to those who are simply too lazy to work. End of.

I would prefer my children to spend some time on benefits than to join any of the armed services.

JustWannaSay, I don't think sending young men off to die in a country where the troops shouldn't even be is a good move, no.

Especially as my younger brother has just applied to join up since losing his job.

there are systems around the world that don't enable being on benefits to become a lifestyle choice whilst still supporting those that really need it - why should lone parents be able to stop at home with their kids for years and years, why shouldn't you pay for your own kids - there is help available, choosing to stop at home shouldn't be a choice unless YOU can afford to pay for it. I don't begrudge anybody temporary support or long term support if they really need it (before anybody say what about disabled people)but if they don't they should work simple as. If you can't get a job do some voluntary work, get a different range of experiences do something blimey where did this culture of take take take come from

you sound like that nasty old man at the post office the other day who asked me if I was married or was one of those young things who gets pregnant with random sex on the specific purpose to rob the pensioners of their pensions using children to live off society on benefits...

why shouldn't they be able to stay with their children? ...anyway your wish will come true pink the law is changing and soon they can put their children into daycare so someone else can look after them..lol..the foolishness

'there are systems around the world that don't enable being on benefits to become a lifestyle choice whilst still supporting those that really need it -'

Oh, yes, I know all about the one in the US, where I'm from, and where the prevailing attitude towards 'the poor' echoes a lot of the more ignorants posts on here. Guess the apple didn't fall very far from the tree in that respect.

The welfare-to-work programme there is a huge failue.

Why are we still, in 2009, persecuting women, women who are lone parents, and not the men who father children and then leave them for the state to pay for?

so they had the exact same teachers? My brothers teachers basically told him he wasn't ever to going to "be" anything - he wasn't academic. Mine supported me.

You are so bloody simplisic its like reading the NOTW and DM rolled into one.

On the issue of findng a job.

I had a locksmith in my house earlier in the week. He had an apprentice working with him. Really nice, interesting intelligent lad. Good manners, hard working. I got chatting to him - he has a 2:i degree from Newcastle University in Psychology and graduated 6 weeks ago. Now he is back hme living with his Mum and Dad and cannot get a job. Had to take a locksmith job that a 16 year old with an HND should be doing.

The second problem is tax and benefits system militates against taking low paid work. It also militates against a single Mum living with the Dad of her child because she will lose benefits. We need a massive reform of tax and benefits.

Finally, if you want an example of the really feckless and stupid I have several middle class clients who I have turned down for loans recently who have good jobs and frankly have deliberatley spent themselves into oblivion on living way beyond their means for years by constantly borrowing against their house.

It is a complex area and there are no easy answers.

As for uni, we're now seeing where too many people with too many degrees is leading.

It is no guarantee of financial success at all.

For more and more, it leads to no better paid work than if they'd never have gone and then they usually wind up with thousands of pounds of debt as well.

Who says I dont blame the fathers - we shouldn't have a system where anyone can stay on benefits long term because they choose to. I didn't get the choice to stay at home with my kids because I had to pay for them - why do you think it is ok to stop at home and claim benefits when you are able to work and pay for yourself and your kids? I agree fathers who don't pay are complete idiots and something should be done but that doesn't stop a persons own responsibility to work and pay their way. Life is hard at times, it shouldn't be a free ride for anybody - you have kids you pay for them, I pay for mine dont want to pay for anyone elses too thanks. In the end there is only one pot of money and if those that could work supported themselves there would be more available to support those that can't

'The second problem is tax and benefits system militates against taking low paid work.'

This is very true, particularly for a married couple or a couple in a domestic partnership.

JustWannaSay I agree you are making some good points ... I seem to live in the same streets you do... (And I actually live in an extremely nice area )

For the record I also have a disabled and claim DLA for her, sometimes go out in my slippers - yes really - oops - but they are very nice ones - but I am a stay at home parent to my children while dh works extremely long hours to provide for us - I also work from home around the children - which is the only way I could work really.

The thing that has just caused me to post - which I have avoided upto now - was the comment about preferring a child to go on benefits than go into the armed forces ....

What sort of a warped sense of pride is that? And how can that be something you would prefer for your child ?
I understand the issues with the army today but thats one hell of a thing to say ..

I would be very scared but very proud if either of my children chose to join the forces.... especially if the other option was a life on the benefit system !

why should there be a list of who should work, why shouldn't people just work and pay for their own kids? yes of course non resident dads should pay but why shouldn't mums contribute to paying for their own kids too. Benefits shouldn't be a choice for anyone imo have kids and pay for them lots of mums don't have the choice to stay at home with their kids and there is support in terms of childcare costs

and I hope you don't have more than one child.........as if you do I think you have a nasty shock when the grow up and despite having "good" parents and potentiall turn out to be totally different individuals, with different personalities.

It is not warped logic - it is carefully thought out opposition to war.
And I did say "a while" on benefits. I myself spent some time on benefits when I finished my undergraduate degree and was looking for a job (under miminum wage even 14 years ago). There is no shame in using the safety net that you pay for.

so now we get to the heart of the matter: pinkington is bitter about being a WOHM, so wants to make sure no one else gets, too, either, unless they meet her standards.

Of course I am bitter that some people get to choose to stay at home while somebody else picks up the bill - what a crazy system where people can choose to stay at home, have as many kids as they want and keep getting benefits to allow them to do so - I have read nothing on this entire thread that justifies to me how people can think it is ok to sit at home and allow others to pay for you.