to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

What about reluctant married mums? I am seriously not disputing that dads should pay - the system with regards to that also stinks you make them you pay for them - but is it only single mums that are reluctant to go to work use childcare? of course not but the option isn't available to live on benefits if you are married

'but the option isn't available to live on benefits if you are married '

Sure it is. I know a married couple who live on JSA and the other benefits. They don't have a mortgage and live in a council flat.

No car, either.

Pink - if it is that easy to bring up a child on benefits than perhaps you should resign?

For the record I would raather my "taxes" went to pay for young mums to stay at home with their children than I would for it to whole in a whole myriad of other directions. So whilst you can pay for the nuclear deterrent, for example, I will "pay" for people to play with their children (BTW I am also a WOHM, but by choice not financial imperative).

I must stop coming back to this thread because its winding me right up.

Its really very simple - yes you can have slightly more cash per week on tax credits - I did when I was a single mum, but its very difficult to pull yourself out of it because if you earn slightly over the housing benefits threshold then you'll lose it as its not graduated - you therefore cant pay your rent.

Also you could save all the money you're frittering away on sky and fags etc but per year it would only be enough for one holiday at best if you're lucky so whats the point - you might as well get enjoyment from that money all the time.

And also you will never own your own house and so never have anything to pass onto your children like the middle classes ensuring that your children will almost certainly not be able to pull themselves out of poverty either.

Yeah sounds great...

Hi Clemette

Im really not trying to be confrontational here - I didnt say warped logic at all - I can completely understand anyone not wanting to see their own relatives or friends go into any form of dangerous job - and I certainly understand that people have particularly strong and personal views on the armed forces - I actually said warped sense of pride - meaning that I can't understand why (imho) any parent would want their child to aim for a spell of time on benefits rather than aim for paid employment .. to me that is an alien concept.

And to me it is the sense of pride in the work ethic which is kind of the root of what is being discussed here.
That was all.

And you are right - I cant see how it was relevant to my post as I didnt mention it so I can only assume it was meant for someone else, there is no shame in using the safety net that you pay for - the recession hit us a little under a year ago and we ourselves had a period where we very nearly lost everything - I have to say the pathetic amount that we actually qualified for from the state barely helped us scrape by - but I do know that for a lot of people it does help. And at the end of the day we had money for food. Nothing else - but we didnt starve - and thank god my dh is a seriously hard worker and against all the odds found himself another job after applying for literally hundreds.

But thats another story lol..

Maybe you should stop being so smug for a minute, and look at your own circumstances and beliefs.
"The kids dont cost us anything..." Why is that a good thing? Why dont you want to spend money on your dc?How do ypur dc feel about that, when they seed other dc getting things from their parents?
You sound incredibly judgemental and smug,and like someone previously said, everything is not black and white. We recieve benefits, and have 2 autistic ds-and you bet your but we have fast-food sometimes.We dont drink or smoke,and we may not always spend our income wisely, but its our business,just as being mean/frugal is yours.

If I resigned I wouldn't get benefits simple as - and of course I don't begrudge people supprot if they have disabled children, one parent should of course be supported to stay at home in that case.

Glad Riven has asked 'where are all these jobs' - we're not exactly awash with them in the UK at the moment are we? Hopefully what jobs there are will go to people who want to work, that sounds like a good system.

Consider myself very very lucky that I'm able to earn enough to get by, as a single parent without any support from estranged husband for past 15 years, but I don't think I could just get an ordinary job - I have to work for myself for a variety of reasons. That's just not viable for everyone.

I WISH I UNDERSTOOD BENEFITS THOUGH! How can it be said on the one hand that some people simply opt out of work in favour of benefits while others claim they can't do that and have no choice but to work? Who is actually entitled to what benefits? I need an Idiots Guide.

Pinkington - with all due respect its because you simply dont understand how the benefits system works in this country.

I was a single mum, in London, with a 3 year old - my (private) rent was 750 a month, my childcare to go to work was 450 (for 2 days a week) and I was being paid 1000 for a 3 day week - now you can hopefully see what the problem is there - if you're working you still have to pay council tax so thats another 100 a month before you have even started on bills or food or anything else - so yes of course single parents will need tax credits to go to work.

I have a wii, ds and PSP in the house. And holidays too.

And we're poor

But we weren't when we bought them mind, life is like that- throws curve balls.

Ho hum

As for the kids parties as long as tehre's food to go without they'll have those (DH does work mind, just eceptionally low income, self employed)

ho hum, shoot me, I even bought hairspray today and had a haircut. I'm looking for a part time job (only found one in whole city to apply for hours I can work so far though), wouldn't get past a door way I was looking with no hair cut since November

well fortunately our benefits systems is paying for 2 of you to stop at home then isn't it! Presumably it doesn't take 2 of you whilst your child is at school though

pinkington, I hope that isn't directed at Riven, because if you knew what that woman does just to keep her DD out of hospital, you wouldn't even think of saying such a thing. BACK OFF.

erm pinkington peachy has children with multiple disabilites

You can resign from your employment, but will only recieve Income Support,not unemployment benefit/job seekers allowance,unless the rules have changed again-which they often do at present.

XP you're right to an extrent about Uni but to me the remedy doesn't seem as some would like to encourage less people to take degrees, but to make them more useful

the one dh starts in Sept includes the electrician regs in year one so the students can get work and they end up with a real skill, that's the sort of thing we should be encouraging- the development of high level useful degrees.

I haven't been able to use my degree coz of the boys care needs but I am still glad I have it so I can do the PGCE one day- it's a useful ticket to further study etc.

argh I just want to cry having scrolled through this thread again

how can some people not understand that life can be a real uphill struggle for some other people?

You'll only get IS now if your child is under 12. Otherwise, it's JSA.

If you rent, you'll get full housing and council tax benefits.

Plus child tax credits if your child is under 16.

Duritzfan, I would rather boil my head than see my boys join the armed forces, truly.
When becoming cannon fodder is the only option to our young people then it is a very sad state of affairs.
My brother is 18, he has completed an apprenticeship in a construction related field (he was not academic in the least, despite being intelligent), worked in that field and then made redundant. He honestly feels that the army is the only option left for him.
It scares me shitless frankly. I am not proud that he will no doubt be sent to some far flung country where he is not wanted by the populace whom he is being sent to "protect" because of an ill thought out and unnecessary war.
I am proud that he is trying to work and do something with his life. I just wish he'd been able to find something that won't endanger his life.

DH isn't at home anyway- he has a part time job he works hard at after a redundancy in June, with a re-training course set up ready for September; I am looking for part time work around my two asd kids.

When I have them ready I will complete the degree I finished whilst also nursing a 5 week old ion 2008 so I can either teach or go into SW.

Poor is a collective term for amount of income coming in, in no way refelcting why that is or how people ended up there. For 5 years dh had 1.5 jobs, after all, it's his ahrd work that means we can contribute at all to our income and we both take a lot of pride in that.

I hate claiming but there is no option- we even got put on a socials ervices waiting list becuase heck, i'm not a risk to the boys- so I can't access any satte summer hol clubs etc. Despite that our kids are well fed, cared for and I have nno doubtr the 2 non asd ones will be extremely great adults. That initself is a great source of pride and very valuable. Ia lso volunteer at school to keep my skills level up and we don't see this as anything other than a bl;ip enforced by chance redundancy- I don't feel ashamed of it, although do dislike it, and I am proud of DH and the ahrd slog he is going to have with PT job and studying.

'I have nno doubtr the 2 non asd ones will be extremely great adults'

PRODUCTIVE

they'll all be great adults, I shalldamned sure make certain of it

I didn't bring up parents with kids with disabilities others did - I know it's an uphill struggle my best friend has a child with pmld who requires 24 hour care so please believe me I know it isn't easy - but her husband does work full time, she cares for her child - don't bring your personal situations into it if you don't want people to bloody comment

pinkington, when are you going to realise that the world doesn't fit into neat boxes? Some children need more than one adult. You stepped over the line.