to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

Morris, what VS actaully said was that all poor people were thick and that there are very few genuine benefit claimants.

Riven, I'm sorry to hear that you are having a hard time. I really am not talking about people in your situation - your dd is lucky to have someone willing to fight to change their situation.

FAQ - LOL at your ridiculous post. What else is different then? You tell me...

!! VS - you asked what was wrong with her and then tell me I am being emotive. How odd.

VS then went on to outline exactly what constitutes her idea of scum and it categorically did not include anybody doing OU courses.

I don't agree with her either but it gets difficult to debate this at all if when somebody says 'I have concerns about some people who claim benefits' people say 'you must hate me then I'm on benefits' etc.

Looks to me like VS is trying to get a rise out of posters and is succeeding, which is a shame. There has been some decent chat and exchange of views on this thread but it's descended now into mudslinging.

VS hasn't seriously attempted to defend her views and I dare say she's laughing in her sleeve at the outrage she's caused.

We'll never have a serious thread here about poverty etc when it gets so polarised.

You said I wasn't one of "those" who you talked about. I am telling you I was/am a child of one so do perhaps have enough understanding.

Whatever your profession your attitudes towards your clients are a disgrace - unless of course you are one of the Provi loan sharks people who prey on the vulnerable...

what differences - perhaps you should read some of the thread (and links) about poverty - read up a bit about the physiological and social barriers that prevent people from the same background A (who's managed to do well) not doing as well them A.

ahh but DH isn't doing an OU course - he's also not working atm, nor is he disabled.......

Riven - no, I wouldn't judge. I walk my dog in the middle of the day and my car is always outside my house - many people may assume I have no job, but actually I work for myself from home and earn good money. So I know that it is easy to judge wrongly based on incomplete information.

However, I'm talking directly about people I know, see everyday, hear about from their friends and family, actually one of the people I mentioned - her story about getting free house and chosing the tiles was told to me by her mother, who was equally disgusted.

So you have to understand, I am not judging people I don't know - I am talking from experience about those I do know.

FAQ- if you read my post, you will see that I was talking about siblings - same background, same upbringing, same amount of money/poverty, same parents, same everything. But in both cases, one went on to do very well for themselves while the other did not. The only difference between them was that one was a go-getter, and the other was not.

Assume your DH is productive in other ways FAQ.

In what way do you think he fits VS scum criteria?

Justwanna - I have a higher degree and a professional job, my brother has no qualifications and works in a call centre (he was unemployed for five years previously). I had excellent teachers, he had druggy friends; he has a criminal record, I don't. Siblings are not clones.

choosing tiles?..who gets a free house?..

Well, there are always exceptions to the rule, as this thread has clearly illustrated.

Actually, I have a higher degree and work for myself. My brother is a struggling musician who lived off benefits for a long time before pulling himself out of it and going to uni.

However, he went to private school while I went to state school, but I pushed myself and he didn't.

No, siblings are not clones, never said they were, but they often get similar starts in life, and it is then mostly down to their own drive to get them where they want to go in life.

Why is being in the army seen as a way of 'bettering' yourself?Unless you are in top rank the majority are from poor backgrounds and are basically canon fodder.AND YES i KNOW PLENTY OF ARMY PEOPLE HERE AND IN usa.AND THEY WOULD AGREE.

My dp has MSC with distinction.We are in situation I outlined earlier.

Just to chuck this in - going to uni etc doesn't always run in familes.

My parents were both the first in their families to go on to higher education. They grew up with the usual poverty of the time (outside plumbing, no heating etc) but used education to lever themselves out of that - of course, material lifestyles have changed anyway.

You don't need money to embrace education, you need support, encouragement and aspiration. Those things are free, though many people are not able to give them to their kids due to being emotionally deprived themselves.

It isn't just a poverty issue, it's a cultural one.

OK, how many threads are started on MN where the OP details how they've seen a child who has been whacked around the head/sworn at/shouted at by their parents and people post about what they've seen? Then the general consensus is "What hope is there for the poor mite?".

So what hope is there for people/children who live in situations like JustWannaSay and VS describe?
I know you say that one person went on and got a £120k job after not having the best start, but really how many of us could honestly say that we'd have the guts/determination/inclination to work hard at school if everyone around was spending all day in the pub (in their slippers)? I am not sure I have that get up and go personally. We are products of our upbringing and surroundings, for the most part.
So how about laying off the sweeping insults and condemnation because it's hardly helping to further polarise members of our society, eh?

no you're missing the point - I saw that they were siblings - does that mean they had the same influences totally - as my DB and I certainly didn't.

Both of dp's parents passed to go to Grammar and couldn't go due to the need to earn money.Obviously that was some decades ago.Of course there are a minority that go to Cambridge now etc[I knnow some[It is harder for them and it shouldn't be.

Well I am invisible on this thread and others and that is how I feel since coming back to UK,which has changed for the worst.

FAQ - well, of course they had some differences, all I'm saying is that they had the same basic opportunities like availability of money, area they lived, support of parents, etc. Of course they would have had different groups of friends.

BUT - they still have the choice of whether to be dragged down by drug-addict friends or whether to hang out with nicer people and make a better go of life.

People have to take SOME responsibility for the choices they make. They had the same experiences that were not their choice: parents, home, area, money, school, etc etc. If one chose to hang out with bad influences and one chose not to - that is their choice. It is a real cop out to say that they have no say in what happens to them after their initial start in life.

Dooby, sorry, took me so long to post, wasn't ignoring you!
Agree that going in the Army is hardly bettering yourself.
In this economic climate there are loads of people with excellent qualifications/experience who are without a job or means of support, we started off lumping these people all in, now we have narrowed it down to the Scumderclass only.

Dooby - not sure what point you are making?
Also, aren't most people doing bath/bed now so not logged on (I am only so because DH has taken my two on holiday and I am supposed to be working)