to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

If your looking for a sensible discussion, you need to start posting sensible OP's, i have a feeling you're in for a long wait, so you might want to nip to the supermarket and get some more apples.

Good post MZ

bur Morris for the hardcore that never come off them there are deep psychological and social barriers which causes it to happen from generation to generation.

I think the media often doesn't help "fewer state school applicants accepted to Cambridge" type headlines. For those living in poverty it becomes a dream that is nothing more than a dream, something that is unattainable by "them" because of where they come from. Often people living in areas of high deprivation have limited social movement - they know/see little of people outside their own community.

If they are lucky enough to escape it they often either have the "wow didnt think someone from your background could do this that or the other", or from their own communities a disownment in a sense that they think the person is trying to achieve something that is impossible - it's the wall in the head. And it's a huge barrier.

If you grow up in an area with very few in employment, and very few employment opportunities, where the general perception from those inside the community and from outsiders is that "well you're doomed to that" - then yes they often are. Getting out of the cycle of poverty is of course achievable - but not for everyone. Even those lucky enough to know how to get out of it never will.

Ditto Mezley.
I was waiting for a reply too but
waiting for rational well thought out replies from nybom seems to be presenting a challenge.

I have often wondered seriously how some people who don't seem to work can afford really expensive 'consumer goods'.It doesn't bother me that they have these things but where do they get the money to dress 3 or 4 kids in designer labels?Really expensive cars/prams etc? When I got ill and had to give up work we tried to find out if we could get benefits so that dp could look after ds while I was on dialysis.They said to us'sell your house'so we did. The OP is saying something that a lot of us think but just put it in v insulting terms.I personally think that anyone on benefits or a low wage can't afford the lifestyle you are describing so they are either running up huge debts or are up to something dodgy

y noddy

I've tried asking that Lizzylou but it is apparently not sensible discussion.

I agree Noddy.
I always wonder why all my neighbours seem to have so much more money than we do. That is human nature I think.
But I don't generalise and start vicious Op's.

I don't believe OP knows anyone who is on benefits and is just ranting for the sake of it.

notsoteenagemum, that was my second attempt as well.
I think we can draw our own conclusions, but that is prob what OP did, so dangerous territory.

"ready cut fruit" - maybe they can afford it having saved money by not buying a knife.

I'm sorry but I agree with MorrisZap and some of the points made in the OP (though not all of them!)

I have often been at the price of cigarettes these days, and it does beg the question - how can people who are living on low incomes actually afford a 20+ a day habit??? My DH and I earn a decent wage between us, but we certainly couldn't afford the monthly cost of that kind of thing!! I wish I did have that amount of money to literally burn every month, but if I did, I would spend it on nice things for my family, not carcinogens. The example Morris gave about the duvets is what I'm talking about here, not the person who looks after their kids first, then has the occasional fag as a treat with the money they have left over. That is their choice - but I think it is clear that the issue here is with those who claim they can't afford their council tax, but can happily spend the same amount on stuff like cigs and booze.

And I am often annoyed at walking past properties that I know are council owned, so being lived in at cheaper rent than the rent or mortgage I (as someone not on benefits) have to pay - and yet while I have a dented 7th hand banger outside my house, these council houses have brand new, 08 or 09 plate cars parked there. Not all of them, granted, but in my personal experience, a lot of them. Again, another monthly outgoing that I personally could not afford, so I do wonder how people who qualify for council housing can afford this???

The original OP may have made some very harsh sweeping statements. However, I do think there is a severe imbalance in this country between people who manage to have 18 kids and not a job between them, versus people like me - 32 before I could afford a house and a child (in that order - i would not bring a child into this world if I could not put a secure roof over its head) because I wanted to make sure I could support a family before I had one, instead of just churning out kids and then expecting the state to pay for them.

Yes, there are people who are unfortunate, who need the benefits and don't take advantage of the system. Of course there are. But this thread is not about those people, it is about the ones who take the P!SS - and they do exist - I witness them in my own street and town everyday.

I understand that FAQ and I agree. It is difficult/ impossible to imagine a life beyond poverty and dependency if it's all you've ever known yourself.

I've taught on one of the most deprived schemes in Glasgow and it was soul destroying. For many of these kids, the only real practical use of going to school is warmth and one hot meal a day.

They are brought up to loathe and suspect education and any adult who appears to represent 'them' - authority, teachers, social workers etc. So they are unable to grasp the opportunities that professionals are so desperate to give them, as they have been taught from birth to reject any influence not from within their own immediate social circle. Oxbridge entrance - pah. These kids would physically assault any other child who demonstrated with pride that they could read.

We have to keep trying, and we can and do make progress. But in a wider sense, the 'poor' that we're talking about here will indeed 'always be with us'.

Most of the Wiis/mobiles/xboxes/trendy trainers are probably out of catalogues or paid for by Provident loans. A few quid a week put away to pay them off. But maybe I am generalising here. I'm only stating this as a few of the mams I talk to at school (who don't work) buy things this way. I've no problem with it at all, because they are paying for it, not stealing it!

JustWannaSay, an awful of lot of Council houses are now privately owned through the Right to Buy scheme, far more than you'd think.

Lizzy - I know, but the right to buy scheme means buying it at a much lower price than the non-council house in the next street (knew someone who did this), the houses are offered at a low price to people on low incomes to help them get on the housing ladder.

But as a worker who does not qualify for any benefits, I wouldn't qualify for such a helping hand, I have to pay full price for my house, and yet I can't afford to live the way some of these people do. Not all, of course, and I see your point that some of the houses may have been sold on at market value at a later date, etc, etc so lived in by working people who can afford a new car, but honestly, the streets I am talking about are mostly full of people who don't work for a living - fact.

you know how a lot parents do it?

Ok they may have their fags (I spent roughtly £40 a month - what I get to keep of my money from playing the organ at church) on tobacco - that "feeds" my, errm not sure how many, a day habit.

I rarely (if ever) go out, I rarely by myself new things, when I was single I often used to skip meals and split my portion between the DS's so they were full up on good food.

I'd scour the charity shops, and freecycle, I would accept hand-me-downs (got a gorgeous bag of "designer" stuff - some of it hardly worn!) from a friend a year or so ago.

I shop in the 99p shop or Wilko for cheaper household essentials, kitchen equipment, just recently (back as a couple) I bought two wall mounted CD/DVD shelving units (I know it's chavvy to have them on show ) they cost me £10 (for both of them) from QD stores.

I frequently "go without" so that my children can have - and as I mentioned in a post earlier I'm lucky that I don't have additional costs that many people on benefits do - essential cars, trips to drs/hospitals, special dietary requirements, extra care costs for children/OH's with disabilities. I'm lucky enough to live close to the town, schools, nursery, supermarket. I don't have to pay exorbitant bus fares just to get my weekly shopping or take my DC to the doctors/school/park.

I'm lucky to have babysitters that refuse to accept payment to look after my children for extremely rare nights out (teenagers from church and my best friend) - means that money for those nights out can be spent on going out instead of childcare for the night. It suddenly become affordable to spent £20 down the pub once in a blue moon when you don't need to pay out £25 for babysitters.

A few years ago we had to feed a family of (then 4) on £15-20 a week for a while (including nappies for a toddler)- it was bloody hard but I did it, and as a result learnt vital lessons which mean I can now comfortably feed a family of 5 of us nutricous meals (and buy nappies) for £50-60 a week.

My DS's are currentl playing on the Wii and PS2 (now have both in the same house since DH and I are back together - I always vowed they'd never have both in the house but I decided not to make them choose when we got back together) - meanwhile FIL is watching TV on an ancient TV that I'm sure is going to die very soon as the blank "patch" on the screen seems to grow every week. The hob still (after nearly 5yrs) still only has 3 working rings, the greenhouse (with mising panes of glass) is still used as a shed for storage, the damp in the bathroom will remain damp (although thankfully DH has managed to crawl along the roof of the downstairs bathroom and discovered the damp issue isn't actuall massive job to fix), the ancient GHC will stay, there's still no carpet in our bedroom, our bed is falling to pieces (but DS's all have newish beds).

In short we make sacrifices so that our children can have more.

I would like to know how anybody manages to claim benefits anyway, my sister was forced to leave university because they would not make allowances for her disability, she has been turned down for every job she has applied for more than likely because of her disability but is unable to claim anything except her DA which is about £60 a week.

to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night

Sometimes you need to put on half a load of washing. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't be keeping sicked upon bedsheets in the basket until I had amassed enough appropriately coloured laundry for a full load! Same for leaving the heating on at night. I'd keep the heating on at night if I was up with a baby, or a sick child, in the middle of a really cold spell in winter. Luckily I'm able to afford these 'luxuries'!

How do you know so much about other people's washing habits?

JustWannaSay

I would imagine that there are a lot of people who qualified for council/local authority housing and have chosen to remain as tenants because it enables them to have a new car/holidays/playstations etc.

Why would you take on a mortgage which enabled you to own your own home, but meant that you could never buy anything nice or new for said home?

Some people choose to buy, some choose to rent.
Individual choices for individual people.

"but honestly, the streets I am talking about are mostly full of people who don't work for a living - fact. "

and how do you know that? Are they long term claimants - or one of the 100,000's of victims of the current recession?

JustWannaSay

I would imagine that there are a lot of people who qualified for council/local authority housing and have chosen to remain as tenants because it enables them to have a new car/holidays/playstations etc.

Why would you take on a mortgage which enabled you to own your own home, but meant that you could never buy anything nice or new for said home?

Some people choose to buy, some choose to rent.
Individual choices for individual people.

And how do you know for a 'fact' whether or not people in these houses work? are you there all the time?

I want to know why all the non-poor people do these things and think it's ok (the ones that do, obv.)? It's not the job of the poor to curb excesses and reduce waste just because they can afford even less to do so.

that's if they can get a mortgage - or if they can get a mortgage if there's anywhere they can actually afford with that mortgage in the area they live.

Just wanted to say that it uses more petrol to turn off your engine and start it again than it does to leave it idling for a few minutes ... the environmental cost is also about the same.

Not sure how to answer the rest of the OPs point - I grew up in poverty and had nothing. Me and my siblings have been able to leave the worst of it behind through educationa dn lucky breaks but my mum still lives on the sink estate we grew up on. Because of mental illness she can't work and I do sometimes get frustrated about her choices (she smokes too much weed and has two dogs - as a result she doesn't always have electricity or enough food.) When she is lucid she can explain it to me - her life is shit; she has no chance of working her way out of poverty and sometimes she just thinks "to hell with it all" and makes irresponsible decisions. She also looks at my expenditure with horror - I see things as necessities that are beyond her (books, for example).

I think the reason you have had such a backlash (apart from not understanding the difference between a dictionary and a thesaurus) is because you have lumped a whole section of society together and attacked them in your OP. At the moment I am involved in a charity that is providing basic maternity packages to the very "poor". These are women who cannot afford maternity towels so have to use wads of material that they wash out. They have nothing for their babies to sleep on. If you feel so fired up about some people claiming to be poor when they aren't, perhaps you could donate some of your substantial income to helping those in genuine need