to not understand why so many poor people...

[nybom]

...are being called "poor" if they can afford:

• cigarettes/drugs
• dogs
• large amounts of takeaways/ready meals
• ready cut fruit, brands, air freshners and other superfluous crap, kids drinks/other products specifically tailored to kids
• to go out drinking
• FF babies
• to leave lights on, have electrical appliances on standby, not to use energy light bulbs, to keep the water running, to put on half a load of washing, to leave heating on at night
• to maintain artificial nails, to have hair extensions
• buy loads of beauty products
• to leave their car engine on whilst going shopping/standing in a traffic jam
• to have themed children's birthday parties with loads of props
• and most of all: have CREDIT cards so they can overdraw

i'm talking of regular habits not just occasional behaviour...

several of my friends are on benefits, so the observations are firsthand and not just assumptions.

a friend of mine (single mum on benefits) got a party bus for her DSs last birthday party (besides loads of presents), this year he's getting a wii (and loads of other presents). WTF?

why don't these people simply save more?

i on the other hand spend less than 100 pounds on a family of four (whilst buying high quality, fresh, organic products) by buying 50% of my shopping reduced/offers, at local markets and a lot of things (like toiletries) from pound shops or discounters. we buy value toilet paper (amongst other things); and i go to the hairdresser twice a year, and only to the beautycian for special occasions such as weddings. the children don't get any toys or clothes from us, as there are enough family and friends who don't know what to buy for christmas/birthday parties. so the kids basically don't cost us anything. we have one credit card and we make sure NEVER to overdraw because of the high interest rates.

i simply don't get it...

Care to answer nybom?

You know, I do see that the OP, in amongst the nonsence about air freshners, precut fruit and FF does have a bit of a point.

There are families who "squander" money on Wii/Playstation/flat screen TVs instead of buying healthy food.

We don't have a flat screen TV as it is not high enough on our list of priorities. The DC do go horseriding though (but not at 60quid an hour, that is ridiculous)

My DB and his family have to be very careful about budgeting as he is not on a high income. He has all the latest gadgets and the DC have lots of toys/computer games etc. But his DC are well cared for and eat healthy, homecooked food.

At the end of the day, we each spend our money on things that are important to us. I would be annoyed if my DB were to criticise me buying designer clothes or going out for meals.

I agree with the posts that say if you can't afford essentials then you really shouldn't be buying luxuries... but who lives as they should? I guess the difference for some is that it's tax payers money they are wasting, it's all about the notion of entitlement imo. And why should you have 5 dcs when you can't afford 4?

Perhaps with this recession people rich, poor and somewhere in between can re-evaluate what is essential.

Retirement is a myth to me and I supposedly have one of the best pensions going!

FAQ - if you consider yourself poor but are helping yourself as much as you can - budgeting furiously, saving up for things for your kids, making the use birthday money etc - FINE, good on you, you have my total support!!

If you are not doing that - if you get a fiver in one hand and you have the choice of a packet of fags OR a fivers worth of electricty for you & your 5 kids....and you chose fags...and then sob becasue you can't afford electricty, this will make me cross, yes.

Oh, and by the way - I am writing on here as work is VERY quiet at the mo'. Infact, i face redundancy. If that happens I WILL lose my house and YES I WILL sell anything & everything I have to try and keep myself and my family afloat. That's because feel that I have a responsibility to do so!

"Didnt you know they do guided tours of the local socialing housing networks? so the rich can check up on their spending"

Do they VT?

Perhaps they bloody well should to stop DM reading folk generalising about stuff they patently couldn't understand if someone drew diagrams and produced a blardy slideshow.

Why can't people just be glad with what they've got instead of jealous/bitter about what they think other people have got?

Because some people are UNABLE TO BF

Yes, there are statistics about over 90% of women are able to bf but until we have the support to help struggling BFers that is going to have to remain a hypothetical figure.

The people who should have the biggest complaint are those people who work for low income and can't get benefits because they earn too much. They then see others with similar income who don't work, it's truly shitty.

skyblu - you'd sell every thing - to what end - I'm sure everything you own wouldn't be enough to save your house.

We could sell all our "nice" stuff that we got before we found ourselves in this current situation. What use would that be? A couple of months food/bills - and then we'd be left with even less than we've already got with no way of ever replacing it - leaving us with even less than we've already got.

And actually don't assume that you will lose your house - we've managed to hang onto ours - and at one point it was literally days away from going to the courts. (and we already had a lot of arrears on it from before DH lost his job).

and fuck that paying £5 for a pack of fags £10 for a weeks worth of baccy thanks very much. Budgetted into my weekly shopping money

YES PosieparkerinChina. It is! And it is unfair - but you are not allowed to voice that - just keep working and supporting those that can't be arsed.

I think lots of people don't breastfeed because there are still a lot of people who think it is wrong or weird. It is a sad fact that has absolutely nothing to do with finances.
I know a couple of young mums who wouldn't breastfeed because they are already looked down upon by the nyboms of our society and couldn't face being looked down on by the small minded people they live near as well.

YABVU Social/relative poverty is a big deal, why should kids miss out on the good stuff in life just because they were unlucky enough to be born into a poorer family?

yes well if you do lose your job - and like many others at the moment are unable to find another one - then we'll remember to come back and have a go at you when you manage to afford little treats for your family or dare to complain that things are tight.

I asked you a question anyway nybom will you answer or are you still deciding what an apple is?

nybom, you never responded about the child benefit thing!

nybom has not responded to anyones valid questions, she obviously has no comeback apart from quoting breastfeeding stats and questioning fruits

But skyblu you are not supporting anyone but yourself by going to work, those that can't be arsed, well thats their problem, not yours, why make it so? be happy with what you have, dont strive to make sure every fucker who has less than you is living a miserable existance, strive to make sure you are yours are happy and healthy

I am happy to extend an invitation to all on MN to come visit my palatial social housing residence. But please, give me time to save up for a flat screen tv first, I don't want to disappoint those who are expecting to walk into a fairyland of consumer goods.

Hmmm. Ok, it was a deliberately provocative OP but I've had (silent) thoughts like that many times myself.

If you can't support x amount of kids why then have x more then complain to the press that you're living in cramped housing.

I grew up with the whole mantra of don't get pg, you'll ruin your chances etc, all very melodramatic and ott but in my group of friends we all wanted to have jobs, houses etc and indeed lots of fun before having families.

It's cultural imo, not directly linked to income. Poverty of aspiration and all that.

I do remember seeing a tv prog about a young woman living in poverty - she was totally genuine and I felt v sorry for her - but she said look, my children don't even have duvets (her kids slept under sheets and coats), whilst sooking on a fag.

Two packets of fags = one kids duvet.

I don't envy her her fags, I don't want her to have her money taken away, paltry as it is, and I don't think she's pampered in any way. I just find it depressing that she thinks the gvt should buy her kids duvets while she spends her money on fags.

How has it come to this, it's a culture of learned dependence and ignorance which is impossible to break as people like this will keep having kids and bring them up to share the same values.

And btw I have been on benefits myself, as have all of my family at various points. I'm not talking about the majority of claimants, I'm talking about the hard core who will never get off benefits and will bring their kids up to think that work is something that people do on telly.

So please don't say 'what, do you want me to give my benefits back' or similar becuase of course I don't. Benefits are slim, it isn't fun being on them and I don't want to take anybodys money away.

- sitting back with an organic apple which i cut myself (to fulfill YOUR cliches) and waiting for a sensible discussion to arise from this before getting involved any more... -

Maybe, just maybe, the OP might have raised a few interesting (in a sixth-form common room debating team kind of a way) questions, but really the tone and language of the OP is just so offensive as to render the whole post ridiculous. On what level is it OK to refer to "poor" people as "these people". "They" aren't actually from a different planet. There are so many different reasons why some people have more disposable income than others and why some people choose to spend "wisely" and some choose to fritter their money away. And, Nybom, as for justifying using the term "poor people" because you've looked it up in a dictionary, that's just lame. poor people = "people with little money" (see thesaurus), no? It's not the word itself that's unpleasant, it's the context in which it's used, silly! Someone who comes from Tajikistan, might be referred to as a Tajik, but you wouldn't abreviate the country name to describe someone who comes from Pakistan, would you? So, it's the way you've used the word, not just its dictionary definition. Any, anyway, why the blazers do you care who spends what on what???? Wind your neck in, love, you'll get a crick in it.

Nybom, can you tell us why you know that Pai (sp, sorry!) is definitely NOT one of your "poor friends"?

Or are you indeed generalising, because I think that that puts a different slant on the entire OP and thread.

Nybom I am not on a witch hunt but you have not responded to many of the sensible, rational, well thought out points raised here - only the ones of less relevance to the social points you are making. So when you have finished muching your organic apple, perhaps you might give some rational, well thought out replies.