in asking for my ex's girlfriends address when my kids stay there?

[altern8gal]

Long and messy 10 year history with ex, he plays games etc but that's a whole different story! After not seeing the kids for 6 weeks I have yet again initiated contact and arranged for him to take our kids for the weekend, with some minimal ground rules, they stay at his flat, he doesn't let them on the balcony etc etc....
He took them at 4pm, and at 9pm I ring my eldest (9) to check he and his 2yr old brother are ok. My son informs me they are not at his dad's but at the new girlfriends house and are staying...I make sure son is ok and keep calm as he gets upset easily, he also begged me to not tell his dad that I knew where they were!
Next day, I try to investigate where my boys are staying, without antagonising the ex...which doesn't go to plan and he rings up screaming and shouting, saying I have no right to know where my kids are or what they are doing whilst in his care. I try to explain calmly that of course it is important to know where they are incase of accident etc etc - he hangs up after some more ranting!
I am happy for the kids to stay with ex & Gf, as she is actually probably more reliable and trustworthy than him, but am I being unreasonable in asking for her address?? I am reluctant to let my kids go next time, but then I end up looking like the bad person again! Any comments welcome!

NeedCoffee, you don't see the offensiveness in what maggiebeebigot wrote? Ok, try this as a counter-example:

"It is different for mums though.

They don't feel the need for putting their children's best interests first as acutely as fathers do. There will be exceptions to this, but is is true most of the time.. My ex was initially talking loads about her never stopping me from having our children, but now she won't let me see them because she says they're too busy, or I go there to pick them up at the agreed time and they're all out, or that she won't let me see them unless I pay her more money. I hear this story over and over and over."

That's about as true as what maggiebeebeau said. (And I do, in fact, hear many stories like that - some women do unreasonably deny access to the children). But it would be flat-out unreasonable, sexist and offensive for me to take such stories and use that as an argument for advocating that women should automatically be regarded as inferior parents and that all control over contact etc should rest with men.

Yet that is what, effectively, maggie was doing and that's why I still think it merited a "fuck off". Family problems come in all shapes and sizes, and neither sex holds the monopoly on bad or selfish behaviour.

I think it's more sad than anything else that Maggie feels that way about 1/2 the population. What a terrible thing to assume that all men are evil feckless bastards unless proved otherwise. It's not a very healthy attitude to have when raising children. How can you say that you're raising your children to have a healthy relationship with the opposite sex when you think men are crap parents. That's essentially what you're saying.

Why don't you think shared care is best for most families RIMOD? I find that quite a shocking (and really depressing) POV.

Of course on MN there are lots of women who are battling with feckless exes. But not all of us are by any means

< sigh >
< passes Reality the Queen Of MN wisdom award >

2rebecca & kslatts -
I didn't spend all day trying to phone, I rang at 9pm, as agreed and son didn't answer!! As for waiting for them to phone me, well as the youngest is only 2, i doubt he's going to pick up the phone and let me know he's ok!!
This is the first time they had been with their dad for 6 weeks or so....it was at a new GF's house, someone I do not know...of course I was wanting to know they were ok!

No,I don't tell my ex where the kids are staying when with me, I have full parental responsibility, by the courts, and I don't need to, however if he asked I would tell him... he does not have these rights and lied about where they would be staying....

2rebecca - you're situation is obviously very different to mine, you have an ex you can trust and who doesn't lie to you or your children. If I thought he would cause them any harm, they would not be going with him, however, I still don't think it justifies not knowing where my kids are...as some of his mates are pretty damn dodgy, and there's no way on this planet I'd want my kids there, hence wanting to know address!!

I agree with everythiny Reality wrote!

Telling somebody to 'fuck off' just because they hold a different view to yours is just ridiculous. Anyone who is that offended by maggies posts that they feel the need to tell her to fuck off has clearly lead very sheltered lives.

That's sad though isn't it? I am drawing on my experience too - my ex has shared care of his kids and is a great dad. I'm never going to be in that position (thankfully) but from the outside (and so from an entirely logical and theoretical perspective which may not be terribly helpful) it seems that shared care should be the starting point rather than something to be aimed for. I wonder whether if we assume that dads are going to be automatically crap once their relationship breaks down means they are more likely to be just that. But then we are talking about live children here, not a theoretical social experiment ...

Hmm it's very tricky

Snorbs-I do not think that maggiebeebeau intended to offend anyone, she certainly didn't offend me, she is simply posting her viewpiont based on her life experiences, as most of us do, she didn't verbally attack anyone and I do not think she deserved to be told to fuck off.

altern8gal wrote "No,I don't tell my ex where the kids are staying when with me, I have full parental responsibility, by the courts, and I don't need to, however if he asked I would tell him... he does not have these rights and lied about where they would be staying...."

aah - you see, this is where it becomes clear that these issues are more about control and rights than anything else. This attitute of "I, as the mother, have all the rights, and he as the father has none" is a real problem in separated families, and leads some manipulative and very controlling ex-wifes to bully their exp's, with full support from the courts, over access

"if the law came down on one side, it should come down in favour of mothers"
"If laws were made on the basis that all dads were as conscientious as your dh, then children would suffer a great deal more."
"Mothers need to be able to be in charge of their own children 'minors'."
"Instead of thinking about how your husband would suffer if mothers had more automatic rights, accept that it would be for the greater good for MOST children."

Those are quotes from Maggiebeebigot. She wants the law to automatically come down in favour of mothers. I'm not denying that there is a depressing number of feckless fathers out there - my own dad's one - but, nevertheless, I absolutely do not agree that the fact that there are feckless fathers out there should mean that mothers should automatically assume total control over their children.

Quite apart from the danger such an assumption represents directly to the children (eg, what if the mother's a drug addict?), it also represents a big issue for society at large. There is a lot of work going on to try to persuade young men that being a dad is more than just about sperm donation; it's about a life-long relationship with your children.

Any change in the law that bolstered the view that children are the property of their mothers, and that the father's role is entirely optional, will simply increase the number of fathers who feel it's ok to walk away from their children. It will also give an even bigger stick to bullying mothers with which to beat their ex-partners. I don't see either of those being in the best interests of children.

I'm not saying that 50:50 care is always appropriate or even desirable. It can work well in some situations, and it can work badly in others. But then there's no such presumption in UK family law anyway.

memoo, living a sheltered life? I'm a single parent, I know a lot of other single parents, and I come from a single parent family. Yeah, very sheltered...

well she certainly did offend me with her mindless sexist nonsense.

NeedCoffee, I thought it was very justified as, to me, misandry is just as offensive as misogyny.

If other people are happy to see offensive, sexist bile being spouted and then not to call them on it then that is their choice. I prefer to confront bigots head-on.

If every person on MN frothed at the mouth every time they read an opinion they found offensive we'd all be washed away on a tidal wave of saliva.

There is a gulf between challenging views and telling someone to fuck off. We've all been tempted, but what's the point? You won't understand what lies behind their thinking and you can't share your own, and isn't that exchange why this place exists in the first place?

Alter8gal you still haven't answered my question. Why did you insist that contact was at his place, and what is your concern about not having her address? I'm just trying to understand things from your point of view.

It's just that I agree with Qally - is this really an argument worth having? But you can contact your ex, you can contact your sons and you have ways of finding out where she lives. If the only problem is not having the address and you get that, albeit not from your ex, then will you be happy and let the next contact go ahead?

It's just that if you want to insist that your ex gives it to you then it feels to me less about having the actual address and more about "winning" an argument with your ex and keeping control over things, and it shouldn't be about that, it should be about your boys having contact with the Dad they love to see.

I think this is an argument worth having.

It's not possible to be on the outside looking in to your own situation.

It's also not possible to change your own ex, or to keep believing in someone. All you can do is the best for your own dc(s) - which OP is clearly doing. JMO.

Surfermum - the reason I asked for the kids to stay at his place, is A) I know where it is, B) the kids have stayed there before and have their own toys/beds/clothes etc at his C) as he has not had or seen his kids for several weeks i thought this would be the safest & easiest option incase of emergency or illness!

I have already stated that I had no problems with the kids staying at GF's house, so long as I knew where this was. The reason I would like to know where it is is quite obvious...my youngest is 2 years old!! I want to know the area is safe, I want to know my kids are safe. For all I know her house could be a room in a squat!

She knows my address,she knows where her kid stays when with it's father, why can't I know that too? Yes they have mobiles, but how can I rely on my 9 yr old son to make sure he phones me at 9pm to make sure he is ok. My ex isn't a very pleasant man, to me at least...I really want to have as little contact with him as possible, so I wouldn't want to ring him unless I was really really worried ...same with GF's address...it is purely for emergency purposes.

Mrs Schofield - this is not about control or bullying - it is simply knowing where my children are sleeping at night...and yes I do have the rights where my children are concerned and that is mainly due to the father's past behaviour! If he had been a better man in the past, he would have 50/50 rights and this would not be an issue!

Even on 50/50 you have the right to know where your kids are. We are at my maternal aunts for 2 nights this week and I have told my ex and given him the address - this is what I would expect from anyone alse, too.

altern8gal - what sort of emergency are you talking about? Do you mean an emergency in terms of the children? - in which case how would you know there is an emergency just because you have the address. Surely in any case you would be reliant on your exp/DS to let you know.

If you mean an emergency with you, that doesn't really make sense either - what sort of emergency on your behalf would necessitate you going to get the children at the gf's house while sleeping there?

DH's ex often makes comments like this "I need to know". No, you don't need to know, you want to know

MrsMS - do you have any children of your own?

Because it doesn't sound like it. Any emergency on behalf of my DC, I would need to know where they were. I think any parent would get that.

notevenamousie, I don't think anyone is disputing that the parent would want to know where their children are being taken by the other parent, and neither would anyone suggest it's bang out of order to lie about it as in the OP's ex's case.

but I am still baffled as to where this belief in an apparent "right to know" comes from. Can you point to any legislation or court cases where such a right is laid down?

notevenamouse - yes, in fact, i do have children of my own

My point was - if there is an emergency with the children, how is it going to help the OP to know the address? Is she going to telepathically get wind of the fact that there is an emergency and go instantly to the house, or is she going to have to rely on her exdp/DS to let her know of the emergency? Yes you've guessed it, she will need to rely on the exdp/DS to let her know, regardless of whether she knows the address or not. Knowing the address and hearing of the emergency are 2 separate issues

I think I'm struggling with it because my dh didn't know where his dd lived for a good year because his ex moved and refused to tell him. And he was made to feel like he was being unreasonable and interfering for wanting to know, not only by his x, by the agencies and solicitors involved at the time.

Their responses were along the lines of "well she's with her mum that's all you need to know", "why do you need to know where your child is". It was a very difficult one to argue against, and the courts weren't interested in ordering her to tell dh.

So I understand about the desire to know, but I'm not convinced that you "have" to know. I think for me it boils down to either you trust them to go and be with their Dad and at the places he chooses to take them or you don't.

And FWIW we found that just accepting it and not arguing over it was by far the best way to deal with it. We made it into a complete non-issue and once the boyfriend (who was the one who didn't want dh to know where they were - from a control point of view, it was nothing to do with anything dh had done) was out of the way dh was told where dsd lived and would go to the house to collect her. Had dh made a big issue of it, then the arguments and animosity would have continued and the way we looked at it was that we were going to minimise that as much as possible as that's what was in the best interests of dsd.