in asking for my ex's girlfriends address when my kids stay there?

[altern8gal]

Long and messy 10 year history with ex, he plays games etc but that's a whole different story! After not seeing the kids for 6 weeks I have yet again initiated contact and arranged for him to take our kids for the weekend, with some minimal ground rules, they stay at his flat, he doesn't let them on the balcony etc etc....
He took them at 4pm, and at 9pm I ring my eldest (9) to check he and his 2yr old brother are ok. My son informs me they are not at his dad's but at the new girlfriends house and are staying...I make sure son is ok and keep calm as he gets upset easily, he also begged me to not tell his dad that I knew where they were!
Next day, I try to investigate where my boys are staying, without antagonising the ex...which doesn't go to plan and he rings up screaming and shouting, saying I have no right to know where my kids are or what they are doing whilst in his care. I try to explain calmly that of course it is important to know where they are incase of accident etc etc - he hangs up after some more ranting!
I am happy for the kids to stay with ex & Gf, as she is actually probably more reliable and trustworthy than him, but am I being unreasonable in asking for her address?? I am reluctant to let my kids go next time, but then I end up looking like the bad person again! Any comments welcome!

but mrsjammi, society hasn't changed. has it fuck. men desert their children every day of the week. mothers are th ones who have that bond to their child that once the child is born they can not just say "I wasn't ready to be a mother"

Your viewpoint is that your dh deserves to be a fifty:fifty parent, and maybe he does, i don't know, but what I'm saying is that if it were assumed by the policy makers that ALL men were as decent as your husband then sorry but a lot of children would be totally fucked, because their mtohers would be unable to protect them from the whims of a man who came and went and put himself and his life and his needs first.

Instead of thinking about how your husband would suffer if mothers had more automatic rights, accept that it would be for the greater good for MOST children.

MIA... no, she wouldn't at all... just wondered what you thought. But again, they have a very good ex relationship so it's easier for them.

rhubarb... I totally agree re the OP's situ.
I was just curious as to how it would be precieved what my friend does. When it's her weekend with the children she often drives up to visit us (with the children) and they all stay over. She doesn't ring her ex to tell him so clearly he doesn't know that the children are away from home.

Does her ex know you? Does he know that she sometimes does this? Does he ever ring them to say goodnight?

I think that if you are the main carer and your dh has a violent past, then you are well within your rights to lay down a few ground rules. For their protection if nothing else!

mrsjammi, I have personal experience of an ex witholding addresses/phone numbers.

In court he was made to disclose these.

So yes, as you state, he is entitled to do as he pleases in his time, ie where he takes them.

BUT he is not entitled to deny the mother the knowledge of where her children are at night.

Oh yes, he knows us... we were all 4 of us good friends for years. He doesn't ring them to say goodnight as far as i'm aware but i know he knows she visits us from time to time.

I think if i had any doubts whatsoever about the safety, anxiety of my children with an ex then I would refuse to let them go and take the consequences as they came. The anxiety in ds's voice on the phone would be enough for me to put the brakes on immediately.

I wasn't comparing our situation to the op's at all. Like I said, they're completely different. I was responding to this:

"There would be no way I would be happy about my child staying at house where I didn't know where they were. Not a chance."

"Under no circumstances would I not know where my child was sleeping."

In the op's case I understand that she is really anxious about the boys going to their Dads and given her level of anxiety it's not unreasonable to want the girlfriend's address. I'm just not sure without further information from the op about what her concerns are and why she insisted the contact was only at his flat, whether it really matters whether she has the girlfriend's address or not. And I mean in the sense that is it an argument worth having, or information she should insist on before the next contact with their dad.

No doubt I've expressed myself really badly again .

I hope all of this helps the OP!

Thank you all again for your input & messages.
Just to clear up a few things, I don't mind that the boys stay at the dad's new GF house, so long as I know where that is, as far as I was knew, they were at his flat, a stone's throw from my house...I do not know where the gf lives, however, she is a friend of a friend and if push came to shove I'm sure I could find out the address, but think really I shouldn't have to do this and ex should have mentioned they were sleeping at GF house, after all, they both came to collect the kids (first meet with GF), and her being a mother herself should understand this, I'm sure she knows where her daughter is staying when with the father!! It was quite distressing to find out that my kids weren't where they were supposed to be.

My ex hasn't been directly violent to the kids, he's smashed my house up and stuff, which the oldest has witnessed,which is plenty enough...I think my son's main worry was him getting into trouble for telling me where they were (or weren't)...or having to come home early - he assured me he was ok and having a good time.

I also have a friend who's ex refused to give contact details, he also was made to pass these details on by a judge, who thought it was ridiculous that the mother was "not allowed" to know where her children were sleeping.

The ex is due to collect them again a week on Friday, I will put it to him for the address thing (No point even trying to talk to GF, he's at her side 24/7 and doubt she would be able to talk to me), if he declines the info again I will withold access til I've seen a solictor, who I'm sure will agree since the history of the case!!

Very very interesting to read everyone's opinion on the matter...thank you again! (PS, this is my first post and haven't got used to the abbreviations yet)

Why did you insist contact was only at his place? And what is your concern about not having her address?

If you don't mind them being there, you just want to know where it is and have ways of finding out, couldn't you just do that? Then your boys could get to see their Dad and you won't be the "bad guy" for stopping them if he decides he's going to be difficult about it.

altern8... Am so pleased you came back to the thread and feel reassured by your comments that should he refuse info you will withold access.
Good luck with all this.

MaggieBeeBeau, I have read some offensive misandry on mumsnet before but you take the very unpleasant biscuit.

I've never had occasion to say this before on mumsnet and hopefully I never will again. Just this once, however, I feel I am entirely justified in saying FUCK OFF.

I don't think you are being unreasonable to want to know, no. However is it really worth the hassle, if your kids are contactable by mobile, and it will wind your ex up so much? Why cause more anger and arguments, when the kids will be the ones to bear the brunt. I'm afraid I think this is a pick-your-battles scenario, and this isn't one worth fighting. I imagine the sensible gf would contact you if there were any real emergency regarding them.

In my experience when people are being raging twunts the best thing to do is let them get on with it. Just refuse to play.

Snorbs, How often do women drown their children or jump of balconies? HOw often do women walk out on their children and start a new family 6 months later? HOw often do women buy a new flash car while their children go without shoes 'round the corner? How often do women sexually abuse their own children?

You know the answers to these questions Snorbs. And so, to give mothers MORE rights would protect MORE children and if that is the only thing that has ever motivated you to tell somebody to fuck off, i THINK far worse of you than you do of me, be assured of that. You're a very self-focused individual. There's a big World out there, and you should think of the greater good for children, not just your own back yard.

MrsJammeI, You're mistaken if you think I'm a man-hater. This isn't about your lovely super dooper husband or my unbelievably vile x, it's about CHILDREN, and having to apply one set of laws to protect as many children as possible, given that all parents are different.

I'm content in my new life and my viewpoint is based on the wellbeing of as many children as possible and all children of separated families. But, you or I arguing on this board won't change the fact that fathers are entitled to 50:50 residency and yet they are the ones who let children down FAR more often than their mothers let them down.

If anybody is going to waste their breath arguing with me that mothers are more likely to drown their children, start a new family again round the corner, not contribute a penny while they drive around in a flash car, abuse their children then I will just laugh! and I will weep

ps, Mrs Jammie, My children are extremely happy and I am bringing them up as well as I can. They are extremely loving, thanks for your concern. I am surprised at you, and disgusted by such a cheap shot, wouldn't have thought you would have come out with something so personal and so cheap. I fully expext both my children to have good relationships with the opposite sex.

How would you like it if somebody said something to you about your children having loads of half siblings here there and everywhere and step-mothers and step-fathers and well aye aye! I hope they aren't damaged by that! I hope they can form a relationship when they grow older.

Jesus christ.

I absolutely agree with everything that Rhubarb has said.

I agree with Mrs Jammi that if you are divorced then you have to accept that when the kids are with the other parent you don't have control over where they go and who they see, you have to trust your ex to look after them.
If you think your ex is incapable of looking after them safely and have evidence to back this up then you shouldn't let him have unsupervised access without going through the courts.
Why did the poster spend the day trying to phone her son and getting in a tizz? If she had just waited until her kids returned and left it up to the kids to phone her then it sounds as though things would have been fine. No harm came to the kids, they just stayed in a different house, but still with their dad.
My kids are now off school for the summer and the next fortnight are with dad and grandparents. Not sure where they are today, they were vague about details, planning a mixture of camping and centre parks. My kids now have mobiles but are rubbish at charging them/ remembering them/ getting back to me. On the other hand when the kids are with me their dad isn't continually on the phone fussing and wanting to know exactly where they are, and we often go off camping and don't let him know exactly where we are. The mobile reception in rural areas is often rubbish anyway. We both trust each other to look after the kids and get in touch if we need to.
I'm in Scotland and have never heard of a Scottish court saying a parent can dictate where the other parent takes the kids unless contact centre specified.
If the kids are happy then I'd let their dad take them to girlfriend's. The contact with his kids is more important than where it happens.
I'd only reduce contact if I was concerned the kids were being emotionally or physically abused or neglected, or if an older child (13+) didn't want to go.
Otherwise relax a bit and find something to do when kids with their dad so you're not phoning all the time.

2rebecca - agree with what you've said. I think often mothers are wanting the information from a control perspective rather than because it's necessary for the wellbeing of the children

maggiebeebeau - actually I agree with everything mrsjammi has said to you. You seem to have a lot of issues, and although you think you are bringing your children up to have a balanced view, I expect that your heavy prejudices against men will impact their future lives. Your suggestion that men and not women are guilty of leaving children, spending money irresponsibly and molesting children are proposterous - you are using your own experience and extrapolating that across the male population in general. Can't remember if you said you have a son, but if you do, you don't have a very high opinion of how he'll turn out, do you?!

I think YABU, if you need to contact them they have mobiles.

If you were going to stay somewhere other than at home one night would you inform him and give him the address?

MaggieBeeBigot: "They don't feel the pain of separation as accutely as mothers do. There will be exceptions to this, but is is true most of the time."
What an appalling, deeply sexist and downright disgusting point of view. And you know that how, exactly? Your experiences with your ex and reading the Daily Mail, maybe?

MaggieBeeBigot: "How often do women drown their children or jump of balconies?"
Hardly ever, although it does happen. It hardly ever happens with men, either. Those that do (of either sex) are suffering from mental illness. To use a tiny proportion of appalling acts by the mentally ill to denigrate an entire gender is crass misandry.

For you to assume that mothers universally make better and more committed parents is flat-out wrong. To then use that baseless assertion to say that women should automatically assume all rights and control over their children is not only dumb and but damaging to both children and society as a whole. I note that you also conveniently ignore the large numbers of separated women who control access to their children not through any particular desire for their safety, but as a means to continue to bully their ex-partners.

Yes, some men are shits to their children. Some women are shits to their children, too. That you had the misfortune to have a relationship with a male shit does NOT mean that men as a sex are worth less as parents than women, or that courts should increase the already extant gender bias.

Residency, and contact, is about what's best for the children. If 50:50 shared care is best for the children in a particular family then damn right that's what should happen.

well...I Am pretty shocked at some of the posts aimed at maggiebeebeau, I cannot see anywhere that should warrant such a response of Fuck off, I agree with what she's saying, not that all men are twats, just a lot of them.

altern8gal-Glad yoyu have made a decision, hope it works out OK

well said snorbs - it's nice to see a rounded and articulate view on this thread