To be absolutely steaming about the fact that people think unnecessary genital mutilation is OK?

[Gunnerbean]

I've been having a debate about this on another site and am staggered by the amount of people who are quite blase about it and can't get worked up about it and seem to think it's perfectly OK, and even perfectly acceptable!!

FFS if you smack a child on the street you risk arrest for assault or abuse yet people are allowed to unnecssarily ritually circumscise male babies without anaesthetic? It beggars belief that this has a place in a so-called enlightened civilised society and can be legal.

I have literally got steam coming out of my ears, some of the exchanges I've had have made my heart literally pound with anger and I think my feelings on this issue might actually make me able to understand how strongly those animal activists feel!!!

I think I need to have a lie down...

junglist you are totally right, of course, that the two opinions cannot now be reconciled, which is why these arguments continue. But it will be interesting to see over time how this issue might get further attention, in some countries at least.

I suspect that as the UK gets more multicultural and hopefully more tolerant of religions and practices which are not traditional white and middle class and Christian on the one hand this may not be an issue for many - just another thing which goes on in certain religions that should be respected. But on the other hand as there is such a growing of child protection issues and the rights of the child etc i wonder if this will become an issue of contention which will have to be addressed by the law.

For example, if my neighbour smacks their child I might complain to the police that they abused their child. So if my neighbour circumcises their child for religious reasons maybe I could do the same. Where would the law stand? Does religious belief come before what some may consider to be inflicting uneccessary pain on a child?

I'm over it, it's about what I consider acceptable. It's not OK to insult others just because it's the internet. Manners cost nothing, that's how I live my life.

Message withdrawn

Actually there may be practical advantages to type 1 female circumcision(removal of the clitoral hood, equivalent to the foreskin). We don't know that there aren't, but it isn't reasonable justification.

That said while I don't really agree with Junglist's decision. I can understand it to an extent,and we don't know the full extent of her and her dh's reasoning. I don't think there's any need to be so unpleasant to her about this.

This could well become an issue as time goes on, yes. Hopefully that won't lead to things being done undercover though, without pain relief and with untrained operators.

Good point - that would hardly be helpful, would it?

Thanks, Thunderduck (adds to Christmas list 5 months too early).

whodidthat - you see I don't see this as an issue of intolerance of other religions (I'm an athiest so pretty intolerant of all equally!) I see it as being intolerant of a culture which inflicts unnecessary pain on a child. I also don't agree at all witht he premise that just because something is done on religious grounds it should automatically be respected. Lots of barbaric practices are carried out in the name of religion, doesn't mean we should respect them. I only respect other peoples beliefs in as far as they do no harm to others.

Jung - well others obviously don't live their lives the same way as you live yours. I don't mind a wee bit of anonymous "insulting" on the internet, you don't mind cutting off a bit of your son's willy....

In the UK other countries rules should not take precedence. So it should be illegal here now. We would also have the right to disapprove of it elsewhere, but not to demand it stop.

In any case we already have laws about harming children and they are not being enforced in case it upsets some religious group.

To take it to the extreme of course we'd act if someone said their religion required them to beat their child with a baseball bat daily. The line between seems to be political rather than what our laws say.

My birthday was last week.Perhaps you could throw in a belated birthday gift too?

Message withdrawn

If WHO is saying that male circumcision reduces transmission of HIV then fair enough.

But I still don't see that as justification for circumcision of infants. A baby boy isn't going to be having sex with a potentially HIV+ partner.

Therefore, why not wait until the owner of the penis is old enough to make an informed choice about whether he wants bits sliced off it or not? (Unless there's a clear and present medical reason for it being done earlier, of course - phimosis and recurrent infections can't be nice.)

If you look at some of the groups of men on t'interweb who are unhappy about being circumcised as children, part of their anger is about the physical effects (scarring, reduced sensitivity, accidental damage to the urethra etc). But a big part of it is about consent.

I'm not rising to it, dear. I know I'm a good parent, end of.

OK Thunder! Will a designer dress do?

Tie a bar of Dairy Milk to the dress and I'll love you forever.

LAL 123 I am totally against circumcision unless for medical grounds. I wasn't saying that it should be respected just because it is someone's religion - not at all. That is ridiculous, and religion can't be a blanket reason for doing what you like.

I was saying that at the moment in the UK there is a real struggle to show ourselves to be tolerant and accept that things go on that we may not approve of, but we let it go on because it is not OK to attack others' religions and beleifs or you will be accused of being racist or anti-semitic etc. If you pick up on this activity and say it is wrong then you are going to be accused of attacking someone's beliefs and religion which is not right at all.

I am a Christian but I am also an adult with opinions of my own and if there are bits of my faith which I do not agree with then I won't just support them and follow them automatically because that is my religion so that is OK.

I cannot understand anyone blindly doing something just because it is religion or tradition without stopping to think about whether it is actually the right thing to do.

" know I'm a good parent, end of. "

It must be nice to be so sure of oneself about these things!

Having said that - a recent case here where baby was killed by abusive bf of mother - mother was out working as a prostitute at the time to earn money for drugs, neighbours were partying at house. The mother sais she thought she was a good mum.

I guess we all have different ideas about what makes a good parent - protecting my children from uneccessary harm comes near the top of my list.

I'll try Thunder but there's no guarantee the chocolate won't have been at least half eaten by the time it reaches you

Anniemac to partially answer your question about men who resent having been circumcised, see this link here:

www.norm.org/

my apologies then whodidthat - I misread your post.

OK whatever weirdo. I know I'm a good parent, end of.

Well that still leaves me with half a bar. That's good enough for me.

That's sorted then

this page is a bit painful. All that talk about stretching.

LOL at good parent. Whenever anyone asks me if I'm a good parent, I tell them that's up to my children to decide, when they are old enough to be able to make a sober judgement about it.