To be absolutely steaming about the fact that people think unnecessary genital mutilation is OK?

[Gunnerbean]

I've been having a debate about this on another site and am staggered by the amount of people who are quite blase about it and can't get worked up about it and seem to think it's perfectly OK, and even perfectly acceptable!!

FFS if you smack a child on the street you risk arrest for assault or abuse yet people are allowed to unnecssarily ritually circumscise male babies without anaesthetic? It beggars belief that this has a place in a so-called enlightened civilised society and can be legal.

I have literally got steam coming out of my ears, some of the exchanges I've had have made my heart literally pound with anger and I think my feelings on this issue might actually make me able to understand how strongly those animal activists feel!!!

I think I need to have a lie down...

greenmonkeys post made me cross my legs in pain just reading it and cry ....and indeed the foreskin is totally attached to the penis until a child is a bit older...in the olden day they didn't realise this, and that is usually while my husband generation were circumcised...nowadays, medically, they will wait quite a while to do a circumcision (in order to see if the skin loosens) and it very much also depends on severety, i.e. if a child has many UTI's etc...
Also, from my trainee nursing day, where I did a placement in a surgical paediatric department/ward we had many little boys that had it done for medical reasons, and whilst the procedure was done under Anaesthesia, the boys were in pain afterwards, and peeing was very painful for a fair while....a lot of them would only pee if immersed in a warm water, as it helps keep the stinging at bay....so, even unde anaesthesia there is some pain, and the only reason why this pain should be inflicted is because it is medically necessary....

As for the whole Religion thing...well...it is always worth bearing in mind when the Bible was written and that it was written by man, as an interpretation of what they believed God said... which has always troubled me, and made me agnostic
But found it interesting that originally it wasn't done the way it is performed now....not that it was great before, but certainly sounds less traumatic.

anniemac....I believe there are several online support group for men struggling to come to terms with their circumcision, and there are men hat have a procedure done to form a new foreskin...although, I suppose they will never regain normal sensation

junglist....I understand where you coming from, about being hurt about comments...but to say, it is not alright to be rude to one another because it is a forum...for someone of that believe you haven't been practicing it...if you truely believed that to be true, you would have not lost your dignity by lashing out and being, indeed, very rude to people....this is just an observation, because I can see why you lashed out...just well...you can't say, you don't be rude to me, and than be rude to others...
oh, but thank you for the unexpected entertainment....the last page has me made smile...what wiht everyone and you getting all confuddled with who said what to whom and so on

and lol at posieparker...at people who cannot spell shouldn't post...you are in good company here...I can't spell to save my life (but you are lucky you commented on yoruself otherwise I would have to shout "Pedant" )

onegar...just now read your post about the observations taken at a circumcision the traditional way...OMG....sickening...sorry....and if anyone had Kids like my es and ys, they would hvae had a little fright, as they would go into their little breatholding trick and pass out, looking dead....

I'm laughing about it myself now. I admit I've got a temper, it's the Tottenham way of arguing . What a nutty thread it turned out to be

Are we all playing nicely now?

Jungalist said:

"Cyprus was at war for a number of years, circumcision is linked to the boy becoming a warrior."

What a complete and utter load of bollocks!! In case you hadn't noticed, boys have been getting ritually circumcised in Turkey for some considerable prior to 1974 or whenever it was that war started!!

Admit it Jungalist*, like lots of British women married to Turks seem to do, you had your boys circumcised because your partner insisted on it.

And as for you spouting off about no Turk would allow their son not to be circumcised well my Turkish husband has not insisted on it. I like to think he's a bit more enlightened than your average Turk and I'm not a "yes" woman desperate to do whatever they bid in an attempt to win approval with them, their families and bloody neighbours too! Who gives a flying fuck what they think? My children would always without question come before what other people think. It's pathetic.

Never mind a willy, it's a shame that women like you can't grow some balls and stand up to these men for the sake of their children and not put them through a procedure in which their genitals are mutilated for no good reason whatsoever.

Actually Jungalist I have to say you've hit a nerve with me because in my OP I referred to another site on which I'd been debating this issue.

It was populated by stepford-style "yes" women who are married to Turks and seem to have forgotten that they are British, so desperate are they to assimilate all aspects of Turkish culture - which sadly includes letting their children's genitals be unnecessarily mutilated in an attempt to curry favour.

I can't believe that I logged on here to vent and you popped up.

So you think I'm a yes woman? I tell you one thing lady, my P can abuse all he likes I would never bow down for one second, always defend myself and give double back. I guarantee you I have more balls than him in any situation. He has never bullied me into doing anything. I can swear that on my childrens life. If only you really knew.

OK it's touchy for you. I can assure you I'm not a yes woman, and I believe those women give others a bad name. When I first met P he expected me to make coffee whenever he asked for it, to defer to his mum, and all that shit. I defied the bloody lot of them.

junglist, just out of interest, what made you decide pro circumcision? You don't have to answer, of course...but, you mentioned earlier on the thread that your partner didn't insist and that he showed you literature, etc...

Gunnerbean...actually, what you say has hit a nerve with me...only with me it is not as "severe" as cultural differences are not so big...my dh is english and I am german, and because we live in england and my boys were all born in the UK, etc...they don't really get much from my german heritage....it's only a very few things that we do the german way, and those are generally around festivals...i.e. christmas baking in advent time and colouring hardboiled eastereggs, things like that....
and I sometimes wonder if I was to ready to give up my own culture, or if it was more a matter of being surrounded by british culture, and if we had been living in germany (but wihtin a british commnity (Army) would it be different...
but sorry...bit off on a tnagent there...

I'm a typical Londoner, my boys (6 and 9) look as if they could be Turkish, but have London accents. I make most of the decisions regarding what they do, where they go. They don't really see the Turkish side because I decided they weren't good enough for my boys. My P is a useless twat who leaves it all to me. I wanted them to experience more Turkish culture than they were and to mix with Turks in the community. Don't forget my brother was circumcised so it's nothing new to me really, P mentioned it, I agreed after two years thinking about it. It happened recently by the way, and there was a bit of pain when weeing, but all is good.

junglist, I aprreciate your honesty....would have understood it if you decided not to answer, after your experience on this thread

Also, Gunnerbean, I believe the reason I'm abused is because of women who bow down to men, for example when I told twat to make his own coffee it was "But so and so makes my mates coffee whenever he wants". You guessed it, Turkish man, simpering English woman with no brain. Circumcision aside, I hate these women as much as you do.

Obviously we're not playing nicely yet.

I'm leaving the thread now (I hope) because I'm too hot tempered for it. You've got me SO wrong. How I defended myself on here is how I am in real life, yes I'm aggressive, I have to be or I'd be in a mental home with the shit I've had to put up with.

och, I thought the thread was turning a corner...

Thunder I ate all your chocolate as comfort food. Sorry

...adds voodoo doll to shopping list.

Jungalist I have to apologise to you for one thing and that is if I brought to the fore anything painful that you did not want to discuss over the net.

My heart goes out to you if you are in an abusive relationship with your partner, it really does.

I have a wealth of experience where Turks are concerned having been married to one for many years (although mine is an absolute diamond I have to say) and knowing many Turks ad Anglo/Turkish couples. A lot of the Turkish men I know appear to have very little respect for women. They like to think they do but when it boils down to it, they don't. I also know so many women through the internet who take unbelievable amouts of shit from their Turkish partners and just put up with it - and on top of it do what they're told too.

It's awful. It makes you wonder what makes these womnen like they are.

Again, I'm really sorry if all of this brought out something painful for you to talk about...

It's OK, I understand why you thought how you did. The woman I was talking about earlier runs around her man saying "Do you want coffee canim" she runs his bath, massages him every day (which my twat then expected) and even cut his toenails once!!! My P kicks off quite regularly but I always put him in his place I even insult his mother every time he insults me, which is wrong but I don't agree with the mollycoddling and enabling that goes on. If you could be a fly on the wall you'd laugh your head off! One time he asked me to make coffee for him and his relatives and I told him to do it his bloody self. The looks on their faces were priceless

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I'm in contact with Womensaid. I've told him if he hits me I'm calling the police, and he knows I will, so he hasn't been violent for a while. I'm still constantly picked on though, but he gets the Junglist gob right back. He even said he expects me to shut up and if I do he'll leave me alone. As if. He says I'm no good at housekeeping when I am, and he says he should have found a Turkish girl. That just shows he's not a real man, he can't handle a real woman who answers back.

The problem is women in Turkey do all this sort of shit and expect to do it too. Tukish culture is supposed to be very family oriented but it's really macho and patriarchal too - women have to know their place and all that. It's totally commonplace for a lot of women to get a good clout, just like the kids do if they are out of line - and they put up with it without question. The Police don't want to know either.

I remember once in Turkey seeing a couple arguing in the street and the man administered several slaps around the face and head to the woman who let out a cry and just ran off. No one said anything to the man and said it was a private matter any no one else's business. I was absolutely staggered but everyone around thought it was ridiculous that I thought the Police should be called.

I call the lazy gits who see women simply as chattals as the ones with the real old school, backward mentality - most of them want to spend all their time in the tea house and only care about money and what their peers and Turkish family think of them.

I know lots of British women who have married Turkish men and they come and live in their homes and bung them a couple of quid a week and then work and send all their money back to Turkey while they work their arses off to scrape by!

I also know of several Turks who have come over here as bogus asylum seekers years ago and have left their wives and children behind in Turkey for literally years just so they can work all the hours god sends in a kebab shop and send their money home. They think that as long as they've got money they're being a good husband and father. They're just greedy and some haven't seen their families for 10 years but they don't seem to care. Then they'll find themselves a girlfriend for sex here. I've even known some single ones to marry a woman in order to get their indefinite leave to remain in the country and then divorce them and find a Turkish wife (always one from Turkey never a Turkish one born here mind you) because they know the right way to behave!!

When I hear of women taking shit from these creeps it makes me sick.

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It's crap isn't it. P says I'm the abuser, he can say what he wants because he should be in charge. He doesn't live in the real world, and that's why I make him feel inadequate, because his mates aren't "disobeyed" like he is. Some of these women don't even know it's abuse, they think the man should be in charge, even if they work and pay into the household. His mum said I was a slag because I had a black boyfriend before I met P, so I hate her too. P told me she was slagging me behind my back. I've found that's another common theme

I'm looking for my own place to rent that accepts pets. He's got a shock coming soon, he definetely won't change but I have. I used to think because I was aggressive back to him it wasn't affecting me, but although he's nice to the boys directly, my youngest has become very self defensive, because he hears me defending myself all the time. He'll have to find another mug, she might even cut his toenails if he's lucky.