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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be absolutely steaming about the fact that people think unnecessary genital mutilation is OK?

313 replies

Gunnerbean · 25/06/2009 16:04

I've been having a debate about this on another site and am staggered by the amount of people who are quite blase about it and can't get worked up about it and seem to think it's perfectly OK, and even perfectly acceptable!!

FFS if you smack a child on the street you risk arrest for assault or abuse yet people are allowed to unnecssarily ritually circumscise male babies without anaesthetic? It beggars belief that this has a place in a so-called enlightened civilised society and can be legal.

I have literally got steam coming out of my ears, some of the exchanges I've had have made my heart literally pound with anger and I think my feelings on this issue might actually make me able to understand how strongly those animal activists feel!!!

I think I need to have a lie down...

OP posts:
Gunnerbean · 25/06/2009 16:30

Here are some clips to look at too - absolutely awful:

here

and here

OP posts:
Thunderduck · 25/06/2009 16:33

I've seen that second video before. It's quite infamous. I think it may the most disturbing thing I've ever seen.

Gunnerbean · 25/06/2009 16:34

Another thing is, if people look at inappropriate images of children over the internet they are prosecuted despite having actually done nothing to the chidlren involved directly themselves. Quite rightly, they are prosecuted on the grounds that they are a party to the abuse in some way and help to perpetuate it, not to mention taking part in acts whcih are wholly socially and morally unacceptable.

On this basis, how on earth can a person who carries out unnecessary ritual mutilation of children's genitals (and the parents who stand idly by and let it happen) not be guilty of a form of abuse then?

The law is an arse.

OP posts:
Morloth · 25/06/2009 16:34

There is no point in having this discussion. Both sides believe their side vehemently and no-one is going to change their minds.

Gunnerbean · 25/06/2009 16:36

But how on earth can people who believe it is right think that? How can they justify it? That's what I can't understand.

OP posts:
RumourOfAHurricane · 25/06/2009 16:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Thunderduck · 25/06/2009 16:38

You're right Morloth. Nothing will be resolved by discussing it again.

Gunnerbean · 25/06/2009 16:38

Well, it most certainly should be up for discussion in a very big way because it is an abusive practive which should be outlawed and the people who do should be prosecuted.

OP posts:
RumourOfAHurricane · 25/06/2009 16:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

HecatesTwopenceworth · 25/06/2009 16:41

I agree. It's not normally 'necessary' (although sometimes needs doing for medical reasons). However, it can be vitally important to some people.

My husband for example. He has talked to me at length about this. In his culture it is - traditionally - when you become a man, a warrior and an uncircumcised man is not a warrior. To them, they are helping, they would be cruel to prevent a boy from becoming a warrior, if that makes sense.

Nowadays, it tends to be done in a hospital, but it still matters, at least to people of my husband's generation. It has significance, it is a transition. To the younger ones, I think it is just 'normal', it's what you do and they don't think about it, but it seems to me that they don't have the same "become a warrior" mentality, iyswim because they tend to get it done at birth instead of 'manhood'.

My husband had it done at 14 - without anaesthetic - in the then traditions of the tribe!

He was adamant that our boys must be circumcised or they would, in his words, "never be accepted" (by the kikuyu as kikuyu) We had many an argument over that, I can tell you.

Vitally important to him that they be recognised as 'men', vitally important to me that nobody goes near my babies with a fecking scalpel!

In the end, we agreed (well, I went on and on and on and on and on and...) that nothing would be done until or unless it was their choice. So when they are old enough and understand enough, it will be explained to them and they can make a choice. I think that's fair.

But the point is, don't underestimate what it means to some people. They truly don't see what they are doing as a bad thing.

Thunderduck · 25/06/2009 16:41

We had a 16 page thread on it which you can find if you search,and another more recent thread which was quite substantial.

AnnieLobeseder · 25/06/2009 16:42

But most men who have been circumcised don't feel that they have been abused. Shouldn't it be up to them to shout abuse if they feel that way? As women who don't even have a penis, aren't our opinions less important than those of the circumcised?

I'm just playing devil's advocate, by the way. If my DDs had been DSs, I probably wouldn't have wanted it done to them.

Morloth · 25/06/2009 16:42

People do lots of things I don't understand as long as they are acting within the law it really isn't my business.

If you really cared you would be trying to actually get the law changed. I don't care enough to do that so I very rarely get into it with people.

Thunderduck · 25/06/2009 16:44

Most circumcised men though have never really known what it's like to have a foreskin, so know as much about living with one as a woman does
And if it's the norm in a culture it will rarely be questioned.

Some do try to regain a foreskin of sorts as they aren't happy with their circumcision,of course plenty are quite content. My dp is, though I don't think he's given it much thought.

memoo · 25/06/2009 16:44

My son was circumsised at age two because he had too much forskin and was getting repeated infections on his penis.

It was done in my local hospital

Surely that can't be wrong??????????

Thunderduck · 25/06/2009 16:46

Well circumcision should be a last resort, and too many doctors are too quick to resort to it when there are other options, or other issues at hand.

AnnieLobeseder · 25/06/2009 16:46

Memoo - I think the argument is against ritual circumcison, not when it's medically indicated.

LundyBancroftatemyhusband · 25/06/2009 16:46

Yanbu OP.

Horrifying. Was it a US forum? I used to post on one and the circ debate always took off in a big way - which is good as it means not everyone there thinks it's OK. But threads often got scratched as it was quite heavily modded.

Thunderduck · 25/06/2009 16:47

I'm not doing a very good job of not discussing it am I? And really another thread about this is the last thing I want.

ninah · 25/06/2009 16:49

I had assumed you meant the female variety, is this viewed differently?

Gunnerbean · 25/06/2009 16:52

Thanks Thunderduck - I'll have a look.

HecatesTwopenceworth I know what you mean - my DH is a circumscised muslim himself and it means something in his cuture too. In fact in his cuture it's a rite of passage and the kids get all dressed up in a special outfit and have a party, complete with horns honking, presents, money, dancing and food to mark it too! Thankfully, he agrees with me on this issue though and our DS remains intact and always will unless advised to have it does for a sound medical reason.

My belief is that people of other cultures who make a conscious choice to marry out of their culture have to accept that the women they marry might not want to automatically defer to their cultural values. If that presents them with a problem then perhaps it's something they should have given more thought to before. If the children don't live in the countries of their father's birth either then his customs may be of little significance to them and this is something that the fathers have to take into account too.

As it goes, I don't think a parent has a right to decide to mutilate their child's body. Parental rights don;t extend to allow you to do that. It is a breach of their human rights and constitutes abuse.

If circumcision is necessary for a sound medical reason due to a physiological dysfunction which seriously impacts upon health and well-being well that would be regrettable but it would have to be done.

Doing it for no good reason however, is abusive and should be outlawed.

OP posts:
cory · 25/06/2009 16:53

well there is a big difference with female mutilation because it leaves females disabled to some extent, unable to enjoy sex, at much greater risk from pregnancy complications

male circumcision just doesn't have such massive effects on your life

I can't work up much of a sweat over male circumcision tbh (nor about ear piercings), but do support campaigns to get female circumcision stopped

memoo · 25/06/2009 16:53

do you know what i have been on here for so long now and I have never felt so offended!!!!

Thunderduck, MY DS's op was the very last resort and how dare you suggest otherwise.

Belive me I tried every alternative I could. The problem was identified when he was a few months old and I left it 2 years in the hope there would be another solution before finally agreeing to let him have the OP.

Morloth · 25/06/2009 16:55

Gunnerbean "should be outlawed" so what are you doing to make it so? I actually agree with you, but as I said I don't seem to care enough about it to do something.

How do you get laws changed/updated in this country? Do you write to your MP? Courts? What?

ninah · 25/06/2009 16:55

although pro female circumscision arguments seemt to be similar, culture and hygiene

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