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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be absolutely steaming about the fact that people think unnecessary genital mutilation is OK?

313 replies

Gunnerbean · 25/06/2009 16:04

I've been having a debate about this on another site and am staggered by the amount of people who are quite blase about it and can't get worked up about it and seem to think it's perfectly OK, and even perfectly acceptable!!

FFS if you smack a child on the street you risk arrest for assault or abuse yet people are allowed to unnecssarily ritually circumscise male babies without anaesthetic? It beggars belief that this has a place in a so-called enlightened civilised society and can be legal.

I have literally got steam coming out of my ears, some of the exchanges I've had have made my heart literally pound with anger and I think my feelings on this issue might actually make me able to understand how strongly those animal activists feel!!!

I think I need to have a lie down...

OP posts:
onagar · 25/06/2009 22:18

junglist1, if you had yours done in hospital that's a lot better.

When this came up before there was a link to how for some religions (even in the UK)it's an excuse for a party and you invite your friends round to watch and to help hold the baby down while some guy rips it off.

Also I understand why people go along with it when all their family & friends consider it perfectly normal. It's hard to resist that as you feel like the mad one.

Having said that I'd very much like to see it stopped for good.

Snorbs · 25/06/2009 22:20

junglist, you're the one saying that you agreed to have your DS circumcised to "fit in" with other Turkish men. I don't see it as unreasonable to try to find out what practical difference it can make given that penises are not typically on public view.

junglist1 · 25/06/2009 22:21

Thanks onagar, respect to you because even though you disagree, you haven't jumped down my throat.

junglist1 · 25/06/2009 22:23

Snorbs, you weren't rude to me at all, I don't understand whether or how other men will know, it's a good point.

junglist1 · 25/06/2009 22:26

And you know what, it's so good a point I'll ask P tomorrow!!!

Snorbs · 25/06/2009 22:28

A pleasure to be of service, ma'am

GreenMonkies · 25/06/2009 22:33

When boys are babies the foreskin is still attached to the glans, the two form one organ. Over time the foreskin loosens and separates and this is generally complete by the time boys hit puberty. (we've all seen how much little boys fiddle with their winkies!!)

When a baby boy is circumcised, the foreskin has to be forcibly separated from the glans, leaving a large, extremely sensitive, raw area as well as the actual cut edges of the foreskin. This separation is done by pushing an instrument between the fused foreskin and glans and ripping the skin away. After this has been done, and it takes a lot longer than a "couple of seconds" this raw area is exposed to urine every time the baby wee's, and even if it is dressed will rub against the nappy etc. This causes pain for several days until it starts to heal. Infections are not uncommon, after all, clinically speaking, this is a "dirty" area.

Older boys and men are given full GA's for circumcision, and are left with much less "raw" areas as their foreskins have at least partially separated, depending on how old they are when the operation is performed. Babies are not required to be given any real pain relief until they are at least 8 weeks old, and local anesthesia is not terribly effective as it only numbs the very surface of the skin, and not all of the layers that are cut during circumcision.

From what I can find out, I believe that originally ritual infant circumcision involved pulling the "excess" skin forwards and snipping it off, not ripping it back away from the glans as is done now. The same is true for ritual circumcision of older boys, there is no forcible separation from the glans, just removal of "loose" skin, which does still cause pain, and carry infection risks, but is not as physically traumatic as infant circumcision.

The modern trend in the US for circumcision was started by Mr Kellogg (he who brought us Corn Flakes) and his motive was to reduce and discourage masturbation by reducing sensitivity. Incidentally, circumcision can also significantly reduce the potential length of the erect penis too, so these babies turn into men with shorter less sensitive penis's.

The idea that it is hygienic is laughable, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to keep a willy clean, and the argument that it reduces infection (in normal penis's, not those which actually do have overly tight foreskins) is crap too, the UK and Europe is not populated by men with fetid rotting knobs and rampant urine infections, and yet most British/European men are not circumcised. How can this be?????

It doesn't matter how you shake it, performing surgery on an un-anesthetized patient is ethically wrong, and having your defenseless baby mutilated in the name of religion is morally abhorrent.

jellybeans · 25/06/2009 22:33

JUNGLIST1 No my kids are not rude (what have they got to do with it!!) but hopefully they will speak out against injustice too. I didn't 'jump on you' just gave an opinion. I found your phrase very sad though.

jellybeans · 25/06/2009 22:35

Great post greenmonkies

Gunnerbean · 25/06/2009 22:36

Thank goodness I am married to a Turkish man who recognises that he married an English woman who has views and cultural values that have to be respected too. He has not expected that our son wil be circumcised as most Turkish men we know do.

OP posts:
junglist1 · 25/06/2009 22:38

It was a tongue in cheek comment because Snorbs was being tongue in cheek.

bronze · 25/06/2009 22:41

Without jumping on Junglist. I have to admit I'm intrigued to know how other people know if someones had their foreskin removed or not. Perhaps someone else might answer as well?

Didnt watch the links... too chicken ... too sensitive

junglist1 · 25/06/2009 22:44

It's OK Bronze I've stopped ranting for now. You and Snorbs are right! I hope grown men aren't checking each other

Technofairy · 25/06/2009 22:44

OK, so I'm no doubt going to expose my ignorance of religion/culture here but what I cannot understand is why circumcision seems to be done predominantly by certain religious groups - Muslims and Jews. Yes I know lots of guys in the US have it done because of hygiene or whatever but it's the religious reasons that confuse me.

Didn't God, Allah or whoever make us perfect? Why do us mortals see fit to alter his perfect design?

If you believe in God/Allah then surely you must think that this all seeing and all knowng omnipotent being gave men a foreskin for a reason and a clitoris to a woman for a reason?

Why all the dedicated following of what it says in the Old Testament and Koran about how you should life your life and then take it upon yourself to mutilate what God has designed and given? Seems to me that on this one us mortals think we know better and that doesn't sound like faith to me!

Snorbs · 25/06/2009 22:46

greenmonkies, thanks for typing all that. It's very sad

A couple of things to add to that - due to the large amount of raw skin that remains, it's not unknown for skin bridges to form where parts of the scar tissue fuses together. This can lead to painful erections.

As for cleanliness, uncircumcised willies are far easier to keep clean than fanjos are. Compare the relative rates of yeast infections for instance. Or, for the more strong of stomach, google the origins of the word "sootikin" >boak

onagar · 25/06/2009 22:51

Technofairy, I'm afraid it was god's idea and it wasn't for health reasons.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between me and you
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Technofairy · 25/06/2009 22:54

Thanks onagar.

I did say that I was no doubt going to expose my ignorance of religion! I have learnt something new tonight.

onagar · 25/06/2009 22:58

Well you were not missing by much not knowing because it still makes no sense.

Why would god (if he existed) really design people one way then demand they cut bits off.

As an atheist obviously I believe this was some guy's idea from those days and nothing divine about it. Maybe he was a sadist and got off on it.

Technofairy · 25/06/2009 23:11

I'm with you there onagar.

I think it is madness too. I get that sometimes male circumcision is necessary for medical reasons but for any other reason seems barbaric. God will accept you only if you've had your knob skin chopped off? Doesn't sound like any God I'd want to worship.

And don't get me started on female circumcision. That is just male sadism against women although the irony is that it is done by women to women

muffle · 26/06/2009 00:09

I wonder if anyone who has gone/would go through with it for their baby boy would be OK with having a baby girl circumcised (to a similar degree and for the same reasons ie cultural)? And if it's different for boys and girls, why?

MissSunny · 26/06/2009 00:33

Message withdrawn

jabberwocky · 26/06/2009 01:04

I remember getting jumped on in that infamous MN way when I first joined for comparing circumcision to female genital mutilation. But I honestly don't see that there is any difference. The "procedure" is cutting bits off of a baby's genitals. Male or female it's just wrong.

morningpaper · 26/06/2009 08:27

Uncircumcised men are a bit of a marvel in 'circumcised cultures' actually - they will often be asked to whap it out so their mates can stare in wonder! You are wrong if you think that people won't know or won't be interested - wouldn't you want to have a good STARE if your mate had a third nipple? It is a similar reaction!

PeachyTheRiverParrettHarlot · 26/06/2009 09:47

MissS whilst I agree with the overall sentiment 'to fit it' isn't quite it is it? I eman it's the Covenant- I might not belive it but if you geneuinely belive that your childs future rests on this then it is far more.

Personally I'm glad I am not Jewish or Muslim, and don't have a multi generational tradition of following Torah or Quranic law.

Thecoenant doesn't make it any more OK but does explain it a lot.

And I presume most men who have their child done were done themselvees which does add to the debate.

''Why would god (if he existed) really design people one way then demand they cut bits off.
' well yes as it was a sign of God's bond and trust above that with other men: remember that the OT texts are from a barbaric time and written about very early cultures. It was a sign of something significant- and a choice then, for the first believers- and some of the Pagan religions that monotheism in the day were battling against would ahve hahd comlpex initiation ceremonies also.

Not sure you can necessarily balms God now in that an awfullot of people do believe God sen a Mesiah who stopped it all. Some poeple of course don't believe it and threiin is the big problem in a religious context- IF Jeus was the rmessenger of God etc then God tried his best.

If he wasn't well I am not Jewish or Islamic so can't explain that from a faith perspective anyway.

And maybe you're right Onager and there is no God in which case it's not just faith based it has massive tribal meaning also.

Stigaloid · 26/06/2009 09:53

I think it is cruel that they don't use anasthetic, however they are encouring it in Africa as a circumcised willy is apparently 'cleaner' and can limit the spread of STI's

link here www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15593753/

My own personal take on it is - i wouldn't circumcise a baby girl so i wouldn't circumcise a baby boy.

Whilst some argue foreskin is like an appendix - no longer necessary, i have left the decision of whether to circumcise our DS up to my husband as he is the only other one with a willy in our family.

I had a friend who made the decision in his lat 20's to have himself circumcised. he was in agony for ages afterwards. Better to do it when very young so you forget the pain, but certainly they should use pain relief.