To be absolutely steaming about the fact that people think unnecessary genital mutilation is OK?

[Gunnerbean]

I've been having a debate about this on another site and am staggered by the amount of people who are quite blase about it and can't get worked up about it and seem to think it's perfectly OK, and even perfectly acceptable!!

FFS if you smack a child on the street you risk arrest for assault or abuse yet people are allowed to unnecssarily ritually circumscise male babies without anaesthetic? It beggars belief that this has a place in a so-called enlightened civilised society and can be legal.

I have literally got steam coming out of my ears, some of the exchanges I've had have made my heart literally pound with anger and I think my feelings on this issue might actually make me able to understand how strongly those animal activists feel!!!

I think I need to have a lie down...

You have come to the right place. I think YABU but many many others on here will agree wholeheartedly.

My little nephew had an extremely tight foreskin and was getting repeat UTIs and the occasional kidney infection as a baby. He was eventually circumcised at 5 under general anaesthetic, and has had no more problems.

My sister and I and are similarly opposed to circumcision on social grounds. That health reason is just a complete red herring imo. My nephew's problems were specific to him and are one of the very few cases that warranted circumcision.

It is a shame though that this debate is never possible without charges of cultural imperialism being levelled at those who oppose it.

Junglist - why did you get your boys circumcised? Was it because your partner insisted?

My DH is a Turkish muslim too (although not practicing) and he has not insisted that our DS is done - he'd have a fat chance of me allowing it even if he did try to insist but he would never anyway.

This is the problem that I have with a lot of muslims and jews - they actually give very little to their religions in terms of observing them, many smoke, drink, gamble, eat pork and so on - yet they seem to insist on mutilating thier chidlren's genitals. Why? Is it just a need to conform or to be seen to be doing what they should?

"Religion makes you stupid and conformity makes you not question your stupidity"

"My little nephew had an extremely tight foreskin and was getting repeat UTIs and the occasional kidney infection as a baby. He was eventually circumcised at 5 under general anaesthetic, and has had no more problems"

That's an example of a physiological dysfunction which impacts on health and well-being and would be one of the circumstances under which a medical circumcision would be necessary.

That's not the sort of circumcision I'm opposed to.

He didn't insist, he gave me some info, I agreed to it after speaking to a few people, including my bro who had it done for medical reasons. There was no railroading at all, he wouldn't have gotten anywhere. There was no party either, I didn't see the point in all that. There were many other traditions I point blank refused to go along with, this one seemed to have some advantages including my boys fitting in with fellow Turks in our community, being taken seriously as half Turkish.

"being taken seriously as half Turkish".

What on earth does that mean?

Well most Turkish men are circumcised aren't they? That's what "on earth" it means.

Agree with you gunnerbean. I find it abhorrent and terrible that you can remove part of someone's body, a functioning, sexual part, when they are a child and don't have a choice, and cause them horrific pain, for any reason other than serious medical need. It's not fair, plain and simple, and if it's important for religious or cultural reasons then every boy should be allowed to make his own choice at the age of consent IMO.

I find it amazing that almost everyone agrees that female genital mutilation is outrageous and must be stopped, but when it comes to baby boys, oh "tradition" and "culture" are king. FGM is perpetuated for reasons of tradition and culture too, isn't it? And frequently enforced upon girls by female elders because they feel it to be important.

Tradition, culture, religion blah blah blah should never be any excuse for physically hurting a baby. If a new religious guru came along and announced that according to his new religion, babies had to have a tattoo done at birth how well would that go down?

'An anaesthetic isn't used because administering it would cause more pain than the procedure itself ?'

Is this for real ? What a completely innacurate, bizarre justification for a barbaric procedure.

Too right - and what about aneasthetic cream, don't think administering that causes pain

But your children are only half Turkish aren't they? Doesn't that mean that they have a whole other side to their heritage which doesn't recognise unnecessary ritual genital mutilation as normal?

I know a lot of Turkish men and Anglo/Turkish couples and find that most of these men seem to think that it's axiomatic that their cultutal values will take prescedence - boys have to be circumcised, childre not allowed to eat pork etc. Why is it too that their wives/partners always seem to so willingly defer to them without question - even if it means mutilating their own children.

It sickens me.

Junglist, so these Turkish men that aren't circumcised, are they not taken seriously? How do the other men know? Do Turkish men regularly go around whipping down the trousers of other men to check out the state of their tackle? Enquiring minds need to know...

OMG Ive not read all of this but i am absolutely horrified that this is done for anything other than medical necessity.

Well my boys eat what they like, and the Turkish side doesn't take priority.I am the day to day carer so make the majority of decisions regarding the boys. There is a vast Turkish community where I live and it was my choice, I would never defer to any man. And it was done in hospital. I would never defend unexpected pain being inflicted on a child.

They just assume they've all been done? I never really thought of that, although a Turkish boy at the school asked if my son was circumcised when he found out my son was half Turkish. Can't imagine men asking though, that would be quite frowned upon!

Ah, so what you're saying is that provided your DS just told people he'd been circumcised, he'd be taken seriously even if his foreskin remained in all its glory? Or, maybe just teach your DS the turkish for "Why's the state of my cock so interesting to you? Are you on some kind of register?" in case he's ever asked.

"I would never defend unexpected pain being inflicted on a child."

Yet you took a decision (which incidentially IMHO is not your right to take) to do just that! In the absence of a sound medical reason to jusfity having your sons circumcised you absolutely did inflict unexpected (and more importantly totally unnecessary) pain on them.

Regardless of whether or not it was done in a hosptial it was unnecessary ritual gential mutilation - end of.

I'm not Turkish, but I know how important circumcision is in that community. It's a strong community that I want my boys to be part of, they don't look or sound Turkish, but their cocks fit right in. I'm off to read my book now, will be back in the morning to shout at anyone who has flamed me.

I am against all GM.. male or female for any reason other than medical. Why aren't boys protected as much as girls? i would never chop off my boys parts without very good medical reasons. Certainly not for my own beliefes/trivia or the worst, to 'look nice'. Those circumstraint boards are awful

What's happened here is that I've been jumped on in typical Mumsnet style even though I'm not defending circumcision without pain relief. OK, you are all great parents and me and Turkish parents are crap. Keep believing it if that's what you need to feel good.

'but their cocks fit right in' what a horrible phrase

And medical reasons are why white parents typically circumcise, right? Oh yah, that's perfectly OK isn't it?

"It takes a few minutes and does not need anesthetic because the procedure is very quick"

Put your hand on the table and spread your fingers out and I'll show you a trick. It won't need an anesthetic because I'll be very quick.

And what horrible people on this thread, jumping on one person who they feel isn't as perfect as them. Are you teaching your children to be rude JELLYBEANS because mine aren't!

Cyber bullies who wouldn't say boo in real life are fucking pathetic. Have some manners

someguy - who are these "rich shouty and influential Westerners"?