to be really really angry that only women are once again being blamed for leaving having babies too late??

[littlestmummystop]

Where the feck is the man's responsibility in all this??

A straw poll of my friends. . . 4 out of 6 felt broody and wanted babies in their 20s despite all also having great jobs. None of their boyfriends also in their twenties were 'ready' so none of them did.

I had a baby at 24, then my exP decided he was too young to be a dad ( at 28) so he left. I've been a single parent since.

So what are women supposed to do? Make ultimatums, have a baby earlier and risk being a single parent? Or leave it till their menfolk are 'ready' to settle down, which among the middle class lot appears to be around 35, and then risk leaving it too late? Why are women being solely blamed for this??

'Similarly it really winds me up when older people make the assumption that young people can't afford their own houses because they piss all their money away on booze and holidays. When in fact it's the greed of people like them which caused the exponential rise in house prices out of all proportion to wages. Leading to people having to rent first, which leads to them being unable to save a deposit, which leads to them being unable to buy a house of their own, which leads to them waiting to start a family. '

Yes, had we not spent all our money on an ipod and an xbox we would be able to afford a stable home

They don't want to face up to the fact that their wealth came at the expense of those who are younger and poorer. So they insist that those who can't afford to pay ludicrous sums of money are too feckless to save.

They pressure young people to buy first. Then buy somewhere suitable first. That takes lots of time and stress these days.

i'm not sure what the problem is, most women were married with dc by age 30 (in the not so distant past)...why have men changed?

spicemonster - thanks for that. I DO feel sad about it as it was something I wanted to do because I know how the awful realisation that I might be childless really felt. I did go and look at the Donor Conception Network and at the upcomng HFEA meeting summary there by the way.

It would be interesting for the HFEA to ask men who decided aganst donating to contribute their thoughts. Being a donor is probably too late for me now at 46.

This thread has slightly surprised me how willing some single women or even women in a partnerhip with a man who is unwillng would be to consider using a sperm donor.

Anyway, on with the tread and sorry for the hijack.

Fio Fio how old are you, it'll make a great deal of difference to where you sit on the housing debate ?

Fio - "I don't understand how older people are responsible for pushing up house prices. Can someone please explain? I managed to buy my own house when I was 19 (with mortgage) and I was only earning 10k p/a."

Well done. Could you buy that house now, if you were still earning 10k p/a?

House prices increased exponentially - most voters are home owners, most thought it was a good thing. Policies were set in accordance with this and no attempt was made to address the massive increase in cost of housing. Lots and lots of people indulged in second homes or buy-to-let, property is my pension...

Renting in the UK is awful compared to other European countries -there is little security of tenure. This housing situation puts immense pressure on young families. It forces us toe either delay having children, or put up with poor housing conditions.

If I could somehow travel back in time and copy your success (by buying property when I was 14) I would.

"i'm not sure what the problem is, most women were married with dc by age 30 (in the not so distant past)...why have men changed?"

I think the housing situation affects men more - they want to feel that they can provide their family with a decent home. It is one of the things that really has changed, now it is very difficult for them to do that.

ABD - I hope that thanks wasn't sarcastic. I thought my post was a bit abrupt rereading it but I hoping I'm just being paranoid!

I am very pro the ending of anonymity but I can understand why that's put men off. Will be interesting to see how many of the current batch of children conceived now that's happened choose to contact their donor.

From everything I've read to date, it's secrecy about a child's origins which makes them more likely to want to do it. Why are you surprised at how many of us are willing to use donors? Would you not have considered it if your IVF had been unsuccessful?

I'd like to add, seeing as this thread is now well and truly hijacked, that although there is a shortage of donor sperm in the UK, at my clinic at least, there was no wait and I was given a choice of donors.

Using a donor was pretty 'out there' when we first considered it at the beginning of our treatment - but when it's your only option, you come round pretty fast and like Spicemonster I find the fact that our child will be able to join all its biological dots a huge source of comfort.

Oop, have inadvertantly started a housing debate....

Obviously not all older people are greedy! The point I was making was that in the not so distant past, most people lived with their parents until they bought a house. Houses were more affordable, and living with parents meant lower (or no) rent, thus allowing them to save a deposit. Which would have been much smaller proportionally, because house prices were more in keeping with the average wage. I'm sorry if I;m generalising, but that seems to have been the case for most of the people who judge the younger generation for not being able to afford property. When I mentioned greed, I was talking about those people who snap up first homes by the dozen as buy-to-lets.

Fio - You are only 3 years older than me and I'm impressed that you got on the property ladder so young - but you must realise that you are the exception in our generation - most of my friends have only bought properties in the last 3 or 4 years, once they had a partner to share the cost. It also depends on where you live I think?

On the other hand, the situation of any potential savings being leached away by rent is something which applies to many people. And as Upwind has said, renting is not only expensive but very insecure unless you have a council home. I for one would never have started a family in rented accommodation because there is always the threat of the landlord selling it from under you with just a few weeks' notice.

Add to that the fact that higher rent and mortgages have led to both partners having to work - so again couples are unable to start a family because there isn't time for a baby!

Come oooooon, lottery.......

spicemonster - no definitley not sarcastic at all (and very sorry if it read that way). Really, you were not being abrupt. It was good of you to respond and it is something I have thought a lot about over the years so interested in your views.

I have only ever once mentioned in passing the issue to a RL female friend (she does not need a donor) and she just tought it was hilariously funny a man would have even thought about donating sperm. I found that odd.

Not surprised at all that childless couples would want to use a sperm donor, yes we would have been happy to use one too if necessary. Unbeknown to us, DW had ovarian cancer whch is why we could not conceive. After she had been 'treated' we then did go through IVF but eventually conceived naturally (twice) which I am glad about.

I am only slightly surprised at the willinness of single women (and those in an unwilling partnership) about considering a donor. However, having read this thread I can now see why that is and the strength of feeling being expressed. TBH using a donor for a woman who is not in a relationship (or not a willing one) sounds a perfectly reasonable solution if the decison is taken in a well informed way.

I slightly wonder if society is really ready for a lot of women choosing that route though?

'I have not been on holiday in almost a decade, we struggle to buy food and deisel at the end of every month. We hardly ever go out. The heating is always off or on very low even in the winter '

This is the reality of life for MANY people who have no hope of ever buying a home now.

Why assume that if you do all these you'll be able to buy your own home, or that if you can't it's because you were fecklessly going on holiday and buying flash cars?

Or that renting is cheaper than buying. PMSL!

Oh, yes, it's really cheap to move every six months or year or so because your landlord wants the place back or to sell it.

I don't think society is and I don't think the majority of women are either, ABetaDad.

Going the sperm donor route is most certainly not the easiest option and I would think only a small proportion of women would choose it.

Ultimately it would be very sad if this was said to be the alternative to men getting with the programme earlier.

Oh no, ABetaDad - sure it was just me being paranoid

I don't think we will see a huge influx of women doing what I did - I would much rather have not spent my fertile years with men who refused to grow up and had a child(ren) with a partner rather than alone. I made some bad choices when it came to men unfortunately and, if I had my time again, I'd do things differently. Becoming a single parent using donor sperm is not something I can imagine anyone enters into lightly. I'm sure I thought a lot more about how I would cope financially, childcare, back up plans etc than most people do before they conceive.

I don't think my sister has ever had a problem with society over her sperm bank conceived children.

As for house house prices I remember when I'd had the first baby 9I was 22) and the midwife came to our house and seemed astounded we'd bought one, which we'd only just managed because I worked full time even when the baby was 2 weeks old, were very careful with money and I picked a career which paid well. And by the way I did a comparison on 1983/2009 when I was paying 12% interest rates. The house we bought cost £40k and my salary was £75,000. The equivalent salary in the same area of business is now £36k and those houses cost £250,000. (That's a 3 bed terraced in London - zone 5). So my daughters should not really find it that much harder than I did when I had them.

Xenia those figures make no sense whatsoever.

Xenia - the figures that you mention are that you bought a house for 1.8 x salary, but that your daughters would have to pay 6.9 x salary. So it would be much harder! Unless one of the figures is a typo. Interest rates may be low now, but I wouldn't put a bet on them staying low, and fixed interest rates are pretty much 6% anyway, unless you have a 40% deposit.

makipuppy/spicemonster - I think you are brave in making your decision to go it alone. You clearly thought long and hard about it.

As we are now well and truely in thread hijack territory I should perhaps answer your query about the 'fear' I have of the knock at the door. My fear is that if I had become a sperm donor (too late now) it would have exposed me to some sort of 'moral' duty to help the child throughout its life. I know there is no legal obligation but the moral pressure would still be there. It might well cause signifcant upset to my DSs as well to suddenly find they had an unknown half brother/sister. I know DW had similar concerns but would have been very happy to have me donate if the risk of the knock on the door had not been there.

I am guessing that other men feel that way - hence the collapse in sperm donation?

Ah, abetadad, but so many things can happen in life! It could be something wonderful too... Why thing of the bad thing not the good thing? Why not an amazing individual who wants to meet you out of curiosity not rebellion?

Also, sperm donation has not quite collapsed. For example, we didn't have to wait and could choose from several donors. According to my clinic the donor profile has changed and there are now far more altruistic men who see the value in it, also the husbands of women treated there, and several of the doctors. I think a lot of gay men have chosen to do this as a way of sending their chaps out there. Maybe you can't demand a six-foot violinist with a roman nose, but then for us it was not about engineering a baby, just having one...

Also I mustn't accept your compliment regarding my bravery either - I was treated together with DP who has rubbish sperm and a family with a hereditary disease. Everyone I tell goes all gooey over how wonderful DP is to want a baby from donor sperm which drives me nuts because he is the one who insisted on it. I would have risked the hereditary disease because I love him and want his babies. What I am is very lucky, because IVF is no sure thing.

i think fio is amazing to have bought a house then and just reacted to market forces surely.

was she expect NOT to have done so?

by the way, children don't need to find out suddenly they have a brother or sister (or ten) do they? I agree wholeheartedly with Spicemonster about 'telling' - that children never mind being told something the right way at the right time. I have several friends who are adopted - for the the ones who always knew, it was maybe an issue but not a problem. For those who found out later, it was a problem.

No I think it's great that she had the foresight to buy when she did, she's 2 years younger than me and I was talked out of buying a property for £27,000, 1.5 x my salary in 1998.
However I think rather than point the finger at her peers fast cars, lifestyles I think she has to appreciate she was very lucky the market worked with her the way it did.
My Dh and his ex wife bought 10 years before her and sold around the time she bought and then spent 5 years paying off negative equity so it could just have easily gone the other way.
As Sarah Beeny points out on property ladder it's the market that provides an awful lot of the luck one way or the other not the financial savvy of those involved.