to be really really angry that only women are once again being blamed for leaving having babies too late??

[littlestmummystop]

Where the feck is the man's responsibility in all this??

A straw poll of my friends. . . 4 out of 6 felt broody and wanted babies in their 20s despite all also having great jobs. None of their boyfriends also in their twenties were 'ready' so none of them did.

I had a baby at 24, then my exP decided he was too young to be a dad ( at 28) so he left. I've been a single parent since.

So what are women supposed to do? Make ultimatums, have a baby earlier and risk being a single parent? Or leave it till their menfolk are 'ready' to settle down, which among the middle class lot appears to be around 35, and then risk leaving it too late? Why are women being solely blamed for this??

Dh has a friend who conforms to type. He is 44. He lives with someone who is 39. He says quite openly to his friends that he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life with her, but likes having a girlfriend until someone else turns up.

(Actually serves this wench right because she came to his house to do 'personal training' and seduced him in the sitting room whilst his wife was in the kitchen. Totally unrelated and random point!)

I think fate should just run it's course on this one. So many women go out their way trying not to get pg for as long and then when the point comes to getting pg it becomes a struggle.
I'm sitting on the fence. Haven't used contraception for over 4 years and had one successful pg and one MC in that time frame, and will continue to let nature take it's course. A career can wait, my ovaries can't...

Fircone I don't really think you can equate marrying someone to commitment or exclude commitment from non-married relationships. The fact that DP and I are not married is a matter for much debate between us, but none of that debate is about commitment. If you scanned this very website for occurrence of ExDH and ExDP you might expect to come up with equal numbers.

Anyway, the friend you mention was married when he shagged his trainer in the sitting room! Not really upholding your point on the commitment of marriage was he...

"Actually, according to Robin Baker, in "Sperm Wars", Horton, Xenia's right: woman stand more chance of conceiving after a random fling than they do with their regular partner. "

Yes, that's true. I know someone who never had children whilst married (neither of them wanted them) and then he met someone in a bar, they went out a bit (not al ot) and she got pregnant accidentally. They aren't in a relationship but she's very happy and he adores teh daughter he sees once a week and he's bought them a house outright and set up a trust fund etc. So yes going to the right area of London where richer men are and getting pregnant by accident clearly works for some women.

I don't have a low opinion of men but I did have a very very strong maternal instinct and I wanted babies from a young age. That was more important thanr elationships with men for me but even so I waited until I was married and we toured the maternity ward on our first wedding anniversary when I was 22.

But women who want babies and haven't found the right man shouldn't despair. If the baby issue is important have a baby. You can still find a lovely man after. Plenty of single mothers get married.

Can I just correct two things on this page? Firstly the alternatives for single women are not IVF or a one night stand. If there is nothing wrong with your own fertility, IVF is not necessary, IUI is all you need (or a turkey baster if you're that way inclined!).

Secondly, abetadad mentions the possibility that he might be responsible in some way for any child that resulted from his sperm donation. That is entirely incorrect - while a child born from donor sperm in the UK now has the right to trace the donor, there is no responsibility to that child - the law is very clear on that point.

Sorry, just wanted to clear those points up.

That's another good point, we live to 80 odd years old now.
Why not look at life as bite sized chunks, a time to be single and indulgent, a time to be a mother, a time to be a career women and a wife/partner too. Who says it all has to happen at the same time ?

LindenAvery/kittywise - well the evidence on this thread is some men are witholding sperm by some means of contraception. I do agree, it is not going to happen 100% but I suspect men in good well paid jobs with reasonable prospects and perhaps a few assets are generally more careful with ther own contracetion and will be even more careful in future. They know that there is financial penalty. Perhaps that is not a bad thing.

makipuppy - yes you are right on the sperm donor responsibility issue. I definitely would not want a knock on the door at 18 though. At the time (9 years ago) there was a lot of wild talk about making donor fathers perhaps 'financially' responsible. It never happened but that still was enough to make men like me walk away. IVF cinics are desperate for donor sperm now. The current Govt is to blame for that. Anyway, this is another discussion for another topic.

Just a thought on 'tricking' men into conception by 'forgetting' to take the pill or whatever. I suspect Courts might well see a case brought by a wealthy man soon who argues he has been defrauded becuase a woman told him she was taking 'The Pill' but had secretly stopped and is now claiming maintenence and child support. It would be interesting to see how a case like that would go.

Again, I want to emphasise these are just my random thoughts and not having a go at anyone or 'putting the male point of view'. This is an interesting thread and quite a shocking one in many ways.

There are lots of men of course who are quite happy to have child so it is not a universally bleak picture. Certainly from my own experience it took 5-6 years from deciding TTC to actually having DS1. In light of our experience, me and DW certainly tell all my young male and female friends not to delay the decision to have children.

I think what annoys me more is the assumption that women leave having babies because they're concentrating on their career. In fact most of the women I know aren't necessarily building a career, they're simply trying to get to a place where it's financially viable to stop work for a bit.

Similarly it really winds me up when older people make the assumption that young people can't afford their own houses because they piss all their money away on booze and holidays. When in fact it's the greed of people like them which caused the exponential rise in house prices out of all proportion to wages. Leading to people having to rent first, which leads to them being unable to save a deposit, which leads to them being unable to buy a house of their own, which leads to them waiting to start a family.

Come the revolution, I shall change it all! Mwahahahahaha.

That is IVF clinics not 'IVF cinics'.

spicemonster - x posted. Yes agreed as per my reply to makipuppy.

I just do not want a knock on the door. In my view, sperm donation should be like organ or blood donation. Free of all future reponsibility.

FioFio - are you sure about that? I am pregnant with donor sperm and as far as I know I am not allowed any contact with the donor, and neither is the child till it is 18.

The donor will be informed of live births. I think I can send a card but I don't think there is any ongoing communication.

What is this hospital are you talking about? I would love to know, as it does rather appear to be relevant to me.

I'm sorry that you feel that way ABetaDad - we need more donors and I feel sad that the mere idea that your sperm might turn into a human being who might contact you is enough to put you off.

There is a green form that the donor fills out when they go through the screening process which the recipient can access if they wish, it's basically an open letter to the children conceived from donated sperm/eggs.

It's not a BAD thing to want to travel, work and have fun rather than breed. The world is seriously overpopulated as it is, so people who decide that they are not keen to breed and therefore will use contraception properly or even get sterilised are the more responsible ones. People who have children because 'it's what you do, isn't it?' often find out too late that they are actually lousy parents and have messed up their lives by breeding when they didn't want to.

My sister imported sperm from the US. Forum shop if you want. There's nothing to say yo uhave to use the sperm of Englishmen. Pick the jurisdiction with the rules that you think are best suited to you. (My sister didn't have IVF to start with by after the 5th attempt at the clinic with the syringe or whatever they do then she moved to 2 cycle of IVF which worked).

As for people having to support children - yes if my children's father had made me pregnant and I didn't want the children I would still be obliged to support htem (I earn 10x what he does and paid out to him on the divorce). Rich men who marry poor women always take a risk. In fact it's best to try to marry up with someone similar. Look at that stupid judge with the rent boy? If he wanted gay sex pick a gay man his own age with as much to lose.

I think FioFio is talking about organ donors and as far as I know, while I would never denigrate the importance of sperm, they're not actually organs

Congrats on your pregnancy makipuppy - hopefully see you at some DCN events one day

'Similarly it really winds me up when older people make the assumption that young people can't afford their own houses because they piss all their money away on booze and holidays. When in fact it's the greed of people like them which caused the exponential rise in house prices out of all proportion to wages. Leading to people having to rent first, which leads to them being unable to save a deposit, which leads to them being unable to buy a house of their own, which leads to them waiting to start a family. '

I agree, babyig. Anyone who rents like us hears that all the time. Oh, yes, we're up to our eyes in debt gadgets. [rolls eyes]

FioFIo, whoops - no I didn't get the whole organ, just the fruit if you see what I mean.

Spicemonster, I must ready for the DCN now, bursting as I am with donor-conceived baby. I'll google it now and see you there . BTW, he's a bit gorgeous your little one isn't he!

It is a terrible shame that men fear the knock in the door, although I wouldn't presume to argue when that person has reached their decision. I just wish more men would work through that process. Personally, if anyone would have my evidently serviceable eggs I would be happy to welcome them all in the future.

But I digress.

Abetadad, yes one day men may go to court to refuse to pay maintenance for the child they were tricked into having. But then, there are already quite a few squillion cases in court of men who don't pay maintenance for the ones they willingly spawned.

There is a black and white 'sperm-napping' argument, and a 'we love each other let's get this show on the road' grey area. However, last time I mentioned it I got called lots of names and I haven't the heart for it today.

"So what are women supposed to do? Make ultimatums, have a baby earlier and risk being a single parent? Or leave it till their menfolk are 'ready' to settle down, which among the middle class lot appears to be around 35, and then risk leaving it too late? "

In practise, they do any of the above, dependeng on circumstances.

"Why are women being solely blamed for this??"

Because women are usually not honest about the choices they have made, and why. If you have never had to choose the least worst option, it is easy to pass judgement.

Thank you makipuppy - I think he is too but I am a teensy bit biased I must admit

Good luck with it all - Donor Conception Network. I'm a member not least because I want my DS to always know other children who were conceived in the same way he was.

Anyway - this is all waaaaay off topic so I'll shut up now