to lack sympathy for my friend who is unable to conceive

[babyetcetera]

We went to uni together and my friend met her husband there - they've been together ever since. In the meantime, some of us had children and she went on to have an amazing career...

When she and her husband have celebrated a big milestone in their marriage they decided to TTC. This was when she was 41. It's now been two years and she is in agonies talking about IVF etc.

I'm finding it hard to keep being sympathetic. Of course I am supporting her and I am devastated for her, but I keep thinking that she chose her life and is now being really REALLY unrealistic about having a baby.

Have I lost sight of any sort of human compassion or am I being realistic at this point?

Yes... BOTH hats

The thing is, what's done is done. Your friend hasn't (for whatever reason, perhaps one you don't know eg miscarriages in the past or other fertility issues) ended up with the baby she wants and is now aged 43 where it is undoubtedly looking more difficult than if she was 23 or 33.

Hence continue to offer her the best genuine sympathy you can muster. If that means less phone calls and visits BUT the best of your compassion when you do speak to her/see her then that's better than sympathy watered down by your "she chose her life" feelings.

Then, instead of feeling annoyed or irritated or whatever it is you are by her situation, count your lucky stars that you are happy with what you have.

Ultimately yes, people are human and I think we all have a bit of the "told you so" element in us. It isn't good to feed that particular monster though as it brings nothing good with it.

"IVF is a very bad thing, I wish it had never been developed."

from your own feelings? can i ask why?

Curiosity I don't get why IVF is selfish but concieving naturally isn't??? Seems an odd opinion.

Adoption is much more stressful than having your own child. Caring for an emotionally damaged child is really really hard. It would be unfair to enter into that without being fully prepared. It takes a very special person. I think it is unfair to say that people not prepared to adopt are selfish.

I have never said it was easy to adopt but IVF is not easy either and has generally a very low success rate (so therefore similar to adoption). If you think having a child at all is easy you are misguided but if you can't concieve naturally then it is logical to assume having a child will be more difficult however you go about it.

AS for the question 'why is it so important to have a perfect baby?', well although I love my son so, so much, being his mother isn't a walk in the park. And he's only on the AS, also has dyspraxia, some OT sensory issues, a severe speech delay... NOne of this makes me love him ANY the less, but if I were to have had another child after him, I would have said to myself I'm not a perfect enough mother to cope with any more appointments and waiting and assessments and diagnoses and worries about the future!! Not wanting another autistic son was MY failing as a mother... People admit this, so they shouldnt be condemned for it. DO you want people taking on children they can't cope with?

JenniPenni, I hope you get your child in your new location! I'm sure it'll all be worth it.

This is such an emotive subject. I wish people weren't so harsh to eachother.

lissielou - Generally the mechanisms of conception, pregnancy and birth are some of the least understood in medicine. Fertility problems are not fully understood either and often couples who have no obvious fertility issues are not concieving for no apparent reason. To me IVF is a way of trying to buy a baby and is effectively doctors and potential parents playing God and creating life without fully understanding the implications. This has always been done and is why medical science advances but I think there is a reason every woman hits menopause at a different age - because that's when their body stops being able to carry a baby. I also feel there are often underlying medical issues when a woman is infertile which have caused the infertility for a reason. When medicine can explain these then women can consider the risks properly but at the moment no-one really knows if there will be any or what the effect of being an IVF baby will be. Conceiving naturally in your 40s is very different to having IVF at any age to me. Apart from anything it offers a dream which may be unattainable to most people.

"This is such an emotive subject. I wish people weren't so harsh to eachother"

me too. Constructive advice based on personal experience is fine IMO but just having a personal idea that IVF is wrong and older women have more difficult pregnancies and births and using those ideas to put people and their choices down is just wrong!

The invention of IVF has spared a lot of people a lot of pain, and brought a lot of very-loved children into the World. What an odd thing to wish curiosity.

How terrible for your friend. Having difficulty conceiving is heartbreaking. It can consume every moment of every day. It can be tough supporting friends through highly emotional and stressful times, espeically if you don't see eye to eye with them.

Maybe you should take time to step away a little so that when you are with her you're able to give her the support she needs. Perhaps she's regretting not having tried for a baby sooner. Maybe you could think about how terrible infertility mixed with feelings of 'if only we had tried earlier' must be, to help rekindle your sympathy.

I do think that some people here have spoken rather harshly to you, I think you sound as if you've given your friend lots of support and are finding the all consuming nature of her fertility problems difficult to cope with. Take a deep breath, step back and offer your friendship when you're ready to do it positively.

Do you object to assisted reproduction from an evolutionary point of view curiosity?

morloth - partly I suppose, more from a social perspective. The ones who get babies are happy but IVF just prolongs the misery for a lot of ppl. Ppl would be less miserable if they got this "I have a right to/want a baby and I'm going to have one at any cost" thing out of their heads and accepted the realities of their own situations.

"I think there is a reason every woman hits menopause at a different age - because that's when their body stops being able to carry a baby"

Menopause is only menopause when a woman is one year clear of having a period. Menopause rarely happens at 40.Women hit menopause at different ages because everyone is different and has different egg reserves.

Many women have ivf for other reasons than the menopause, infact there are often age limits in clinics which would stop menopausal women from being able to have IVF anyway.

A woman of 39/40 WILL see a natural decline in fertility, that's biological fact, but it doesn't mean they are menopausal.

It's not down to you to decide what pain other people should risk undertaking though.

By curiositykilled Mon 15-Jun-09 17:19:54 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

lissielou - Generally the mechanisms of conception, pregnancy and birth are some of the least understood in medicine. Fertility problems are not fully understood either and often couples who have no obvious fertility issues are not concieving for no apparent reason. To me IVF is a way of trying to buy a baby and is effectively doctors and potential parents playing God and creating life without fully understanding the implications. This has always been done and is why medical science advances but I think there is a reason every woman hits menopause at a different age - because that's when their body stops being able to carry a baby. I also feel there are often underlying medical issues when a woman is infertile which have caused the infertility for a reason. When medicine can explain these then women can consider the risks properly but at the moment no-one really knows if there will be any or what the effect of being an IVF baby will be. Conceiving naturally in your 40s is very different to having IVF at any age to me. Apart from anything it offers a dream which may be unattainable to most people.

im gobsmacked. truly. afraid i have to leave this thread now before i explode. i really hope that you never have to endure the pain of wanting a child and clinging desperately to your dh, both crying, because once again your pants are full of blood and you have failed at a basic human function.

Lissielou I'm with you.

Considering the insults that the OP got on here I can't believe Curiosity has gotten off so lightly.
I can only hope she keeps her thoughts to herself in RL.

curiosity women are not children who need to be protected from themselves though. I don't think there are many people who think that IVF is an easy option.

The evolutionary argument is one I can understand (if not one I necessarily agree with, personally I don't think we can do anything outside of what nature allows as we are part of nature).

I don't see the social harm of assisted reproduction. Why should people accept a reality that makes them so unhappy if there is even the slightest chance that it can be changed?

I remember when we were having trouble conceiving, the awful ache was just so deep and so difficult and I am one of the people who flatly refused to do IVF - but other people make other choices.

In fairness, At 39 I KNOW I will one day have to give up on the idea that I might get pregnant, there IS a cut of time and I will have to face it.

I am just gobsmacked that someone with no experience of infertility (unexplained or otherwise) would think it appropriate to tell women in their late thirties and early forties that they should just give up now, when there is much evidence out there that it is possible (With or without assistance) to fall pregnant at this kind of age.

Also gobsmacked at the lack of empathy towards anyone who might be finding the journey emotional. There but for the grace of (insert favourite fairytale 'god' here) go you curiosity. It's easy, when you've not had to face any of these issues yourself, to have the high-ground based only on what you think you would do and what you think others should do but it shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the breadth of human emotion.

am always somewhat at the "have you thought of adoption" type comments. As if it really is that simple, and someone unable to conceive would just go down the adoption route.

Now don't get me wrong. Adoption is a fantastic way for many people to achieve their dream of becoming parents, but it is certainly not for everyone, and anyone who thinks that people should just adopt is clearly very naive and has no idea of the processes and difficulties involved.

Adoption is certainly not for everyone, and equally IVF is not for everyone either.

Also curiosity, do you have children? Are they adopted? If not, why not?

ALSO, curiosity, on the subject of people drawing out the pain of being childless, can I just say, I heard of a woman who had to hand back her adopted baby after 9 months because the bio mother wouldn't finalise the adoption. HOW painful would that be?

Thanks Maggie xxxxx

Something women with no kids have to withstand also is that people always assume it's her with the prob... I am 100% fertile, hubby has the fertility prob due to mumps when younger... but because my BMI aint perfect (due to steroid use for respiratory probs) I get told 'lose weight love, then you'll fall pregnant...'

You cannot begin to understand how that hurts

BUT I have a super marriage, a man who adores me as I do him, and this could never become a problem between us... it's OUR problem, not his.

As woman we should support one another, not pull eachother down - it' a natural thing to crave motherhood... to want to give birth... and if that is snatched from someone, no matter their circumstance, we need to stand by her and care for her in her grief. We really need to be kinder to eachother.

I thought it was just the op who lacked compassion - I see that's not the case.

The problem with having an Opinion about the rights and wrongs of IVF is that it's a subject so close to people's hearts. Intellectually I know the risks and chances of IVF succeeding. I know the challenges and the costs - but had I needed it to conceive do you think that knowledge would have outweighed a desire for a baby? Of course it wouldn't. The decision to go for assisted conception represents a choice nobody wants to make and to accuse those doing so of selfishness and unrealistic expectations is cruel. It's really not fair to attack a choice which is made in the face of having no choice and it's especially untenable to make that attack if you yourself have conceived and carried to term.