to lack sympathy for my friend who is unable to conceive

[babyetcetera]

We went to uni together and my friend met her husband there - they've been together ever since. In the meantime, some of us had children and she went on to have an amazing career...

When she and her husband have celebrated a big milestone in their marriage they decided to TTC. This was when she was 41. It's now been two years and she is in agonies talking about IVF etc.

I'm finding it hard to keep being sympathetic. Of course I am supporting her and I am devastated for her, but I keep thinking that she chose her life and is now being really REALLY unrealistic about having a baby.

Have I lost sight of any sort of human compassion or am I being realistic at this point?

I had my first at 34 and thought all this talk of declining fertility was an anti-women media conspiracy. I am utterly shocked now though at the number of friends aged 38+ who suffer miscarriage after miscariage or are having rounds of failed IVF treatment.

Good post Amiable.

I had my twins at 35 after 7 years of fertility treatment and IVF. I had a hunch I wouldn't conceive straight away which is why we started when we did. I know I'd probably be childless if I'd started ttc 10 years later. I do think women need to be warned more I really do.

Having said that I think the op needs to be more sympathetic and is being unreasonable.Whatever the life choices infertility is total hell which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, it's truly awful and the friend in question just needs love and support not judgement.

disclaimer I realise this will offend you all but I just need a little vent and can't hold it back... It is just my own opinion/moral code anyway...

Why is no-one thinking about adoption, why is it ALL about IVF?!?!

There are loads of children who are already born and need families. Yes, they have problems because of the way they've ended up in care but it is very likely that a child concieved beyond a woman's natural fertility would too, that's if it and her even survived the pregnancy safe and well.

Leaving it so late then having traumatic and expensive IVF repeatedly rather than adopting is just very selfish. Yes, the adoption process can be traumatic BUT you will be making a very large difference to a child that is already born and currently unloved rather than creating another life at the end of it and you will not be risking miscarriage after miscarriage and a risky pregnancy. Do these people really want to care for a child or is it just another box to tick off? career - yes, husband - yes, baby - oops, better get trying! I mean some ppl bankers are retiring mid forties fgs...

It is sad to not be able to concieve at any age but at some point you just have to accept that is how things are and move forward. Declining fertility is not the only issue! Having a first baby at 40+, or even a large gap and another at 40+, is very risky for both mother and baby health wise.

Starting TTC in your thirties would even have been a bit dodgy where fertility and risk is concerned. The optimum physical age to carry a baby is 22 - long before the average age most ppl start at 27.

All that said the OP's position is difficult. I don't think she is being unnsupportive - you can't help what you feel and in fact her friend is probably feeling the same things! All you can control is what you do and that, in this case, is to try and maintain your support of someone going through a difficult time.

Agree with others - you are not being a supportive friend if you are on here saying you have no sympathy for her.

Everyone's circumstances are different.

I had my first DD at 29y after some difficulties (15m, early mc, 15m TTC again). I am now 36y and been TTC for number 2 for 5 years. Have had two ops and various hormones, plus clomid but nothing. IVF not likely for us.

Infertility is a very difficult time. The yearning for a child can be very over powering and all encompassing at times for people, and something that can be difficult to deal with logically.

Those who have had no problems with fertility possible cannot consider what they would do in suh a situation, and OP - I think you are perhaps like this. If you want to support her than listen to her and empathise, don't slag her on a parenting site!

A friend of mine had a little girl this weekend after FOUR miscarriages in four years - I WEPT when I got her msg that baby had come early and all was well

We have been trying for 5 years to have a child, I am now mid 30s... and it was confirmed last year we could not have one biologically together. I cannot begin to describe to you the anguish and grieving we have gone through as a couple. 2 weeks after this news I had a near fatal asthma attack and was in hospital for 5 days, as the news had shocked me so much.

We will be adopting... moving to another country to do so actually as we cannot adopt here (unrealistic UK red tape). That's how much we want to be parents - and helping an unwanted child is such a privilege in itself.

If you cannot be sympathetic for your friend, leave her alone. She only needs those around her know that give a damn and will hold her close when the tears come. And they will come.

Yep curiositykilled, you've certainly offended me with that ignorant and crass post. Well done

curiositykilled, have you looked into adoption? It's not as easy as, 'Oops I can't have my own baby, oh well I'll just go and adopt someone elses'. When we looked into adoption the only children on the adoption register, where we lived were older siblings, and it just wasn't something we were ready to think about.

What do people do if they don't meet their partner until they are in their late 20's/early 30's?

"it is very likely that a child concieved beyond a woman's natural fertility would too,(have problems) that's if it and her even survived the pregnancy safe"

What a ridiculous thing to say.

curiousity - I'm 40 and 4 weeks pregnant with my first (not IVF).

So nice to see my life summed up by someone who knows nothing about my cirumstances.

Thanks for your completely crass and insensitive comments and hope you enjoy your smugness.

Curiosity - Adoption isn't for everybody. We thought about it but decided against in the end. We do now have a DD after some intervention, not IVF btw, and I'm in my 20's.

An in law of mine and a family friend both work for adoption agencies in the north of England and both told us that there are very few babies coming up for adoption, we'd be more likely to get an older child. She also said that a high percentage of the babies available for adoption are from drug-related situations which (rightly or wrongly) put me off.

I wish I would have thought that adopting would fulfill my desire to have a child, but the honest truth is that, for me, it wouldn't have done. I have friends that have adopted and are wonderfully happy, but for me it wouldn't have been the right path.

I'm off out now so I'm not ignoring you if you respind btw.

"Why is no-one thinking about adoption"

Adoption is an incredibly hard and long process. I remember another poster writing about it and saying how dismayed she was about people who say 'why not adopt' as if it's the easiest thing in the world to do. I would consider adoption but I know my house would not be deemed suitable as we have 2 bedrooms and the only bathroom leads off one of the bedrooms. To adopt an older child (which there are more of) you would most likely be adopting a child with some kind of difficult background and although that is something I would have no problems doing it's not as easy as walking in to social services and picking one.

Perhaps many older women would much prefer to try to give birth to a child first before setting down the adoption route? I think it's very unfair on teh whole adoption process to blithely say 'why not adopt' and when I was told recently that I was going to miscarry my first pregnancy at 39 and one of my friends said 'there is always adoption isn't there' I found it very cold comfort. It's insensitive and it doesn't take into account how difficult it can be to be accepted as someone suitable or capable to adopt.

So that's why!

"It is sad to not be able to concieve at any age but at some point you just have to accept that is how things are and move forward. Declining fertility is not the only issue! Having a first baby at 40+, or even a large gap and another at 40+, is very risky for both mother and baby health wise."

and, disclaimer I realise this will offend you but I am sorry - this is bollox.

My grandmother was 42 when she had my mum in 1947 - naturally. Not everyone who is 40 will have a risky pregnancy and birth. Yes, older eggs are not so good and so it is harder to get pregnant and keep the pregnancy but the whole pregnancy and birth is not always more risky.

Every 40 year old is different.

Good point beanieb. My grandmother was 40 when she had my dad with no problems, in 1934.

In fact, in the past a lot of women had babies in their 40s because there wasn't reliable contraception. Many women just kept on getting pregnant until the menopause and had a lot of children over a long period of time.

"Leaving it so late then having traumatic and expensive IVF repeatedly rather than adopting is just very selfish."

...no words. Unprecedented, for me, so congratulations.

Why is it so important to get a perfect baby? Why would an older child/drug affected/disabled child be off-putting for people? Surely, if what you really wanted was to care for a child rather to have a child it wouldn't put you off so much that you'd rather not have one at all? It wouldn't put me off in the slightest. It is hugely naive to assume that IVF would be easier, IVF is horrible.

I'm absolutely positive I would have gone through the adoption process in this country if I had been unable to concieve. I would have taken anything they offered - sibling groups, severely disabled, teenagers, anything... I have always thought this, even since childhood. Of course children available for adoption are mostly older children, there are a lot with serious health problems and disabilities also. They are children that people don't want (sadly) and they normally come in groups, quite rare to just be one child with no siblings. Anyone thinking about having children needs to be ready to care for a child that isn't exactly what they want it to be or for the posibility of ending up with more than one child.

IVF is a very bad thing, I wish it had never been developed.

Hulababy - I think you can think about your own possible infertility, before your fertility has been tested, pretty effectively. Psychologically lots of people feel they are not-fertile (I don't mean infertile) before they are pregnant and this brings similar worries to infertility.

hazey - Of course I know about adoption. I know, and stated, it was not easy. If circumstances in your life lead you to start TTC later than is ideal (and I would imagine this would be almost everybody nowadays) it is absolutely necessary that you understand that it might not happen and what the risks are as you age. Also, it is not anybody's RIGHT to have any child (genetic or not), children are a blessing not to be taken for granted. There are increased statistical risks of TTC and/or maintaining a pregnancy/Delivering a baby which rise steadily after 35 and increase dramatically after 40. Can you really argue with this point? It might not put everyone off but people should be more aware of this.

amber - I can understand this feeling, sympathise and feel happy you have now got your dd. BUT why would you not want an older child/child of a drug addict e.t.c?

fatlady - I really hope everything goes well for you and didn't want to scare you, sorry. I was just pointing out some medical 'facts' about age and fertility and my issue is with IVF beyond natural fertility - this can be in a 27 or a 50 y/o. Statistics are just statistics, it doesn't mean something will happen to you or your baby. I should have considered how this might make someone in your position feel, I apologise.

Why is it so important to get a perfect baby? Why would an older child/drug affected/disabled child be off-putting for people? Surely, if what you really wanted was to care for a child rather to have a child it wouldn't put you off so much that you'd rather not have one at all? It wouldn't put me off in the slightest. It is hugely naive to assume that IVF would be easier, IVF is horrible.

I'm absolutely positive I would have gone through the adoption process in this country if I had been unable to concieve. I would have taken anything they offered - sibling groups, severely disabled, teenagers, anything... I have always thought this, even since childhood. Of course children available for adoption are mostly older children, there are a lot with serious health problems and disabilities also. They are children that people don't want (sadly) and they normally come in groups, quite rare to just be one child with no siblings. Anyone thinking about having children needs to be ready to care for a child that isn't exactly what they want it to be or for the posibility of ending up with more than one child.

IVF is a very bad thing, I wish it had never been developed.

Hulababy - I think you can think about your own possible infertility, before your fertility has been tested, pretty effectively. Psychologically lots of people feel they are not-fertile (I don't mean infertile) before they are pregnant and this brings similar worries to infertility.

hazey - Of course I know about adoption. I know, and stated, it was not easy. If circumstances in your life lead you to start TTC later than is ideal (and I would imagine this would be almost everybody nowadays) it is absolutely necessary that you understand that it might not happen and what the risks are as you age. Also, it is not anybody's RIGHT to have any child (genetic or not), children are a blessing not to be taken for granted. There are increased statistical risks of TTC and/or maintaining a pregnancy/Delivering a baby which rise steadily after 35 and increase dramatically after 40. Can you really argue with this point? It might not put everyone off but people should be more aware of this.

amber - I can understand this feeling, sympathise and feel happy you have now got your dd. BUT why would you not want an older child/child of a drug addict e.t.c?

fatlady - I really hope everything goes well for you and didn't want to scare you, sorry. I was just pointing out some medical 'facts' about age and fertility and my issue is with IVF beyond natural fertility - this can be in a 27 or a 50 y/o. Statistics are just statistics, it doesn't mean something will happen to you or your baby. I should have considered how this might make someone in your position feel, I apologise.

here is the thread where I read the post by Kewcumber (hope she doesn't mind me posting it...)

"I don't know a single adopter who wouldn't give the advice - keep trying until you can't try anymore because it is still easier to be pregnant and give birth than adopt, on average.

If having children was just about "giving a child a home" then everyone should in theory be considering it, most people are not trying to conceive just to provide a home for a child.

Biologically producing children (in the absence of other problems) is like flying to Australia on holiday (as often as you fancy it/can afford it). Adopting is like going by boat, with some people on ocean liners, some on sail boats and some rowing!"

"IVF is a very bad thing, I wish it had never been developed."

you say this from your own experience?

Oh and to all of you using examples of grandmother's having babies in their forties, most of these babies were not their first baby. First baby, a baby with too short or too long a gap is the most risky. Having had previous pregnancies at all would protect you from some of the risk and the fact that you had concieved naturally would be a good sign for the outcome of the pregnancy.

curiosity, at risk of offending it is obvious that you have never actually had to make these decisions. it is very easy to say i will just (just!?!) adopt, but having too because your body isn't doing what comes naturally is a totally different thing.

Why is the burden of adopting always placed on people having fertility problems?

How come there isn't the same pressure applied to everyone who wants children to adopt? It is just as selfish to have a baby with no problems as it is to have one after IVF etc.

OP, I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong, I think you don't know her whole story and you need to understand that she is hurting now even if it is of her own doing, that doesn't make it hurt any less and probably makes it worse.

I don't think there are any statistical risks in TTCing at any age Your post makes good points but in a v insensitive way.

beanieb - From my own feelings

My gran had her kids (4 girls) in her 40s after WWII... that's a big reason why so many women had babies later in life... the war.

Friends of ours have a child and could easily have another, and chose to rather adopt and give an orphan a home and loving family. I take my hats off to them