To want parents to stop blaming their child's teacher for everything?

[starlightexpress]

I'm just so sick of reading parents on here moaning about how crap their child's teacher is for one reason or another (not aimed at any particular thread this evening, btw).

In any given class of thirty-three, seventy percent of my time is spent dealing with about three kids who couldn't give a fuck. They don't want to learn, they don't want anyone else to learn. I'm not talking SEN, here, I'm talking just plain naughty.

As far as I'm concerned, the majority of the time when a parent is on here moaning about how shitty their child's teacher is, it falls into one of four categories.

Either your child is:

a)Badly brought up and you're making excuses for them.

b)So-called "SEN" which means they can behave when they want to, but misbehave most of the time using said SEN as an excuse. You allow them to do this because you prefer not to take any responsibility for their behaviour.

c)Genuinely suffering from an SEN, which I probably know very little about and am given little support (either in terms of training or TAs or resources)for.

d)Suffering from the fall out of "inclusion" which means that so much of my time is spent firefighting (see a, b and c) that I don't have the time to spend on your child that they deserve.

Of course there are crap teachers. There are also medicore teachers and there are good teachers who have crap days and make crap judgements sometimes. But mostly it is not your child's teacher's fault.

If you are a C or a D parent, then get thee to the Head, the governers, the local MP and kick up an almighty fuss. You're right to be upset, I don't blame you, I'm not happy about it either but what can I do? I'm doing my very very best but I can't fight the system on my own.

If you're an A or a B parent, do what the fuck you want - that's what you do anyway, and I'm not interested in your whining.

Before you ask, I teach in an inner city secondary school. Not the worst school in the whole world but not great either.

I'm a relatively experienced teacher with a decent results record. I don't have classroom management issues - last Ofsted (they actally watched some of my lesson) they said that this was a strength, fwiw. It's worth nothing actually, as Ofsted couldn't identify one end of a decent lesson from another, but I know their opinion matters to a lot of you.

Go on, flame me, I will have heard worse at parents evening, I can take it.

AIBU?

Balloon Slayer,

"Do the children in your school not have statements, school action, action plus? Do you not have a Special Needs register you can read?"

Firstly, accessing any documentation on your pupils is remarkably difficult. Shouldn't be, but it is.

Secondly, often the actions I am meant to take are in complete conflict with the space and physical resources available to me, and also in terms of lesson pace and meeting the needs of the rest of class, it's impossible to cater for the child with SEN needs sometimes as well a teaching the rest of the class adequately.

Let's say that the PSP (Pastoral Support Plan) says that I must:

Make sure that the TA has a copy of the lesson plan. But the TA is only there one lesson out of four, and it's someone different each time

Allow J to work on his own. But if the lesson involves role play, what can I ask Joshua to do?

Make sure that J hears the question, sees it written down and has a mind map to help him form links. But it's a discussion lesson focused on a speaking and listening task; there's no "question" as such. And how long would that take? What happens to the other 32 while I'm doing J's mind map?

Yes, I could spend several hours (days?) researching every child's specific SEN and strategies for dealing with it in the classroom. But...I have supper to cook, a child to play with and put to bed, a husband to reconnect with, mumsnet to waste hours on , preparation for the next day.... I only have so much time available to me, and I know your child's needs are the most usgent to you , but I have to do the best I can with the time and information the school gives me (very little). I can't work unpaid all evening and all weekend to make up the shortfall.

"How long have you been a teacher?"

I've been teaching for seven years.

"...teachers are the one section of the population who have seen every SEN, and could probably find them easier to diagnose than Doctors."

I can identify children who are having problems accessing the lesson. Sometimes I would be able to attempt a diagnosis of what that difficulty is. Occasionally I will be able to use strategies that I've read about and have worked in the past. But genuine, structured support and advice for dealing with the many SEN children I teach that enable me to give those children all the help that they need and deserve? Not a chance.

I have too many pupils (routinely 33 in my classroom)and not enough time or training to deal properly with (some) SEN children . I'm sorry that your child gets let down by this. I wish it wasn't the case. But in my OP, the point I was trying to make that while it clearly isn't your fault and I don't blame you for a minute, neither is it mine.

There is clearly a difference between SEN and just naughty with parents that don't give a monkeys, and it is very important to differentiate between the two.

Peachy is right (again! ) there is a misconception that parents choose mainstream education for their SN child as though they are in some kind of denial. It is very, very difficult to access Special Needs Units. There is in fact no suitable SNU in this area for DS2, as I said it has actually worked out very well for us, and the school has a whole has gone to great lengths to understand his SN, and whilst I am grateful I also think, well rightly so!

op;....agree with you...some parents expect teachers to be miracle workers....i don't know how they do it...i'd be insane within a month.

I haven't read the whole thread, but OP I agree.
I teach primary. Class of 24, aged 6, 7 & 8. Wonderful small class!? No. 50% are on the SEN register for educational or behavioural reasons. I have a TA every morning but little or no support in the afternoons.
Some of the class are almost feral, no respect or responsibility for themselves. I have never had a class so dependent on "Mummy". Mummy forgot my bookbag, Mummy forgot my coat, Mummy didn't do my homework, Mummy told me to hit that other child.
In seven years of teaching, this is the only class to make me cry (not in front of them, obv).
At the moment I am not teaching. I am crowd control.
And long summer hols? 5 1/2 weeks. First and last weeks are spent in school. At least one other week is spent planning or preparing resources.

On starlight, I don't have a child with SEN, lucky me. (My DS1 is 9 and starting to moan about homework, things "not being fair" -he gets no sympathy from me, I promise you.)

I was asking questions from a TA point of view because that was what I used to do.

Your answers were very thorough, and you sound like a great teacher. I was only challenging what you wrote in your OP - it mae you sound like you are "washing your hands" of SEN children. I now realise that's not what you meant and not what you do!

FWIW I agree with the rest of your post, although I do feel (TA again) that children are usually disruptive because they can't cope with the lesson, so I feel that 98% of children who are disruptive at secondary level are so because they have fallen behind at primary and this situation is by secondary level, now largely irrecoverable in our current education system. Trying to control a Yr9 pupil who can hardly read in an English lesson, who is really kicking off, I thought for him it must be like putting me in a room full of spiders or asking me to sing to a classroom full of opera singers when I can't hold a tune - I'd misbehave too.

You know, I get that teachers can't do it all (in fact I volunteer in school so know this well) but I still have to look after my boy's needs

And the LEA won't listen until I have tried everything, which unfortuantely means asking the teachers a lot

The old SENCO never reffered my boys fior anything,lost all the apperowrk and always said she was too busiy... sorry about that sweetheart, but ds2's probable dyspraxia not being picked up until he was 8 is a direct reulst of your forgetting to back up the referral we requested, so I do fee bad about it.

It's a complex relationship, between SEN parent and teacher, but just as hard for us the parent I can assure you, despite what people think at school (I imagine) I'm not a natiral whinger or asker. If it were my needs I would have left it long ago.

It;s a system failure, saldy, but one that requires us to start with the teacher.

Were there a school specialising in Aspergers, ds1 would be queuing up outside (He also asks for a SNU placemnt) for a place with me, but there isn't. I an't home ed him as I get the very wrost of his aggression, so I am stuck.

op yanbu.
I volunteer in a local school precisely because the teachers have no support. My own DCs don't go there!!!
The unmet needs of some of the children is appalling. Since I have no experience of dealing with SEN I basically help the kids who want to get on while the teacher helps those that cant or wont.
But I'm not a teacher so that's not ideal is it?
Many of the teachers in the school are thoroughly disheartened and do the bare minimum so I take my hat off to you that you are still obviously trying.

Should also add that my help is very small - I can't do every day. Sometimes it's bedlam when I am there so God knows what it's like when the poor teacher is on her own.

how do teachers cope with so many children with SEN?...it's not fair on them is it.

Peachy, I get what you're saying. Totally understand. If it was my DS I'd move heaven and earth to get his needs met.

No problem at all with starting wit the teacher. It's parents who blame me. Who expect me to take responsibilty for the whole crappy system and somehow make it better for their child that gets me down.

I sympathise. And if I taught your DS I'd do everything I possibly and reasonably could to support him. But sometimes everything I can do falls woefully short of what is needed. And that's tough on everyone. The parents, the teacher, the child, the child's peers. Especially the child.

I have to go and teach now ( mumsetting planning a lesson during lunch!) so am not ignoring subsequent posts. Will try to check again after school

The systems are crap. We had an annual review recently for ds2's statement and I was horrified at how sneaky the LEA's can be. If it wasn't for me having read up alot about how the statement should be worded (and help recieved on MN) they would have been able to reduce alot of his help on a technicality. I wonder how often this happens and that they get away with it.

Have read some of the posts and just wanted to say that everyone has different experiences obviously, good and bad but in the main I feel sorry for the teachers..
Apologies if this has already been said as I haven't read all 5 pages of this post..
I am a TA and so can only talk from my experience but how can anyone expect one person to manage a class of widely diverse children! In the school I work in there are few TA's because of money but it is evident that the teachers need more help. My teacher says that some kids get lost when I am not there and I think that is a good point. She can either concentrate on the 'low ability'kids who are not always classed as SEN so dont get automatic support, and then the others dont get stretched, or... she can concentrate on ensuring that the kids that can understand the lesson get the support they need as a group! Some kids will then not do as well as they could or will lose concentration and then mis-behave and she will end up blamed.
I think good teachers feel bad about this situation but what can they do? One 'naughty', 'bored' kid can and does disrupt a whole lesson so what can you do?

Please please comment on my plan to go private, I value your opinion

Grammaticus, i would, if it were at all possible. Totally ahore the principle but would anyway.

Starlight I do kjnow what you are saying, we try and help as much as we can but I think that it's a combo of frustrated parents findin themselves up against brick walls every avenue they try or twunts. I am at the twunts and sympathetic towards the other group.

there is a Mum at school who hads to sugn her child in for SS records sake as she can't always be bothered to take him and often is not there at pick up (and ew hang around as the SNU taxi also drops off there). I personally think she has bipolar, but each time her child hits or anything you get 'Oh kids will be kids'. She ahsn't spoken to us since Dh yelled 'or some will be tyrants hitting my around the head with a lunchbox'.

OOps

(Had it been ds1 I would have shrugged off as likely 50/50)

I have been threatened by aprents for ds1's behaviour, so can ony imagine what the teachers get.

OP i think YANBU, the amount of parents who blame everyone else but themselves for thair childs brattish behaviour astounds me, as does the number of people who claim SEN without actually haveing any proof is immense round here, drives me potty, you kids is just a bit challenging, deal with it!! arrggghh (this is not what i say abotu actual lSEN but there are alot of mums in my kids school who say, 'there must be something wrong' errm you feed your kid junk, he gets about 5 hrs sleep and you wonder what is wrong?)

Generalisations like the one in the thread title seldom work out, IME.

Of course it's inappropriate for all parents always to blame all teachers for difficulties in school. Just as it would be wrong for teachers to blame parents for difficulties in controlling their classes, or blame children for being difficult to manage.

There are a great many wonderful teachers out there doing a magnificent job who are undeserving of blame for the difficulties facing the children they teach.

Sadly there are also a great many lazy tyrannical shit teachers who blame parents and children for their own shortcomings.

It's a big-ass world

I'd say it's more often the parents' fault than the teachers', tbh...

Grammaticus - independent school can be much better but you have to choose wisely.
A lot are hot in discipline, there is no way DCs would be allowed to get up to what some of my chrages do att he local school.
A lot do not cater for SEN, thus the issue of SEN kids not having their needs met does not arise. Chicken and egg. If your child has any SEN check carefully that the indie school will provide a level of support you're happy with.
As you are paying you should go for a school where classes are small. I'm also in favour of early setting to ensure children are taught with others of similar ability.
I for one would not pay for experienced and committed teachers to spend their time in crowd control.

funkybuddah: "this is not what i say abotu actual lSEN "

• but who are you to know whether there is actual SEN involved?

I do get what you are trying to say

HOWEVER, it is desperately sad when working in secondary to see children struggling, demoralised and with zero self-esteem (eg being too scared even to try to answer a question because they think they'll get it wrong), whose parents have never sought help for them, perhaps through denial: "No child of MINE has special needs" or bravado: "I've never passed an exam in my life, never did me any harm." While children who are perhaps more capable have different parents who have got them extra help and they are thriving.

Our local independent primary school has only three children in year 1 and they are not all reading yet.
Be VERY careful about choosing is my advice.

Grammaticus the choice to go private has worked brilliantly for us. DS is in a class of 17 with a teacher + a full time TA. It has been excellent for him.

But I second (or third) the advice to choose carefully. I went to lots of open days and some schools I could tell from the moment I walked in that it wasn't going to be right.

DS is quiet but he often doesn't pay attention. I was worried if he went to our local state school which does have huge classes, that he would simply miss so much - at least if you are loud and naughty someone notices that you are not paying attention. As it is he has had some fine motor control issues and the school are right on it. Not something I would really expect an already overloaded teacher to have noticed.

Our school is also extremely relaxed and small - all the parents are heavily involved (and are welcomed to be). They also don't ask for any extra money, everything is included in the fees...be careful with this and ASK about it, I have had friends pay an already extortionate fee only to be constantly asked for money for "extras".

Starlightexpress -You tell em love

There are teachers who have a negative view of SEN - I've met them. Thankfully they are in the minority but if your child goes through their hands then that's not much help.
The Code of practice foe SEN states that 'stereotypical views of parents are unhelpful and should be challenged.' Am a teacher BTW.

A few years ago we had a child at school who was completely blind. His parents had been offered a choice at a specialist school which could meet his learning needs perfectly, but they wanted him to expereince a mainstream education. They understood that classroom teachers in mainstream schools could not be expected to produce separate activities/resources for every single lesson, but they considered our school the right place for him to be.
For every statemented child I have ever taught (SA+) this has been the attitude of the parents. They know we do our best.