To want parents to stop blaming their child's teacher for everything?

[starlightexpress]

I'm just so sick of reading parents on here moaning about how crap their child's teacher is for one reason or another (not aimed at any particular thread this evening, btw).

In any given class of thirty-three, seventy percent of my time is spent dealing with about three kids who couldn't give a fuck. They don't want to learn, they don't want anyone else to learn. I'm not talking SEN, here, I'm talking just plain naughty.

As far as I'm concerned, the majority of the time when a parent is on here moaning about how shitty their child's teacher is, it falls into one of four categories.

Either your child is:

a)Badly brought up and you're making excuses for them.

b)So-called "SEN" which means they can behave when they want to, but misbehave most of the time using said SEN as an excuse. You allow them to do this because you prefer not to take any responsibility for their behaviour.

c)Genuinely suffering from an SEN, which I probably know very little about and am given little support (either in terms of training or TAs or resources)for.

d)Suffering from the fall out of "inclusion" which means that so much of my time is spent firefighting (see a, b and c) that I don't have the time to spend on your child that they deserve.

Of course there are crap teachers. There are also medicore teachers and there are good teachers who have crap days and make crap judgements sometimes. But mostly it is not your child's teacher's fault.

If you are a C or a D parent, then get thee to the Head, the governers, the local MP and kick up an almighty fuss. You're right to be upset, I don't blame you, I'm not happy about it either but what can I do? I'm doing my very very best but I can't fight the system on my own.

If you're an A or a B parent, do what the fuck you want - that's what you do anyway, and I'm not interested in your whining.

Before you ask, I teach in an inner city secondary school. Not the worst school in the whole world but not great either.

I'm a relatively experienced teacher with a decent results record. I don't have classroom management issues - last Ofsted (they actally watched some of my lesson) they said that this was a strength, fwiw. It's worth nothing actually, as Ofsted couldn't identify one end of a decent lesson from another, but I know their opinion matters to a lot of you.

Go on, flame me, I will have heard worse at parents evening, I can take it.

AIBU?

Some teachers thrive on working in the more 'difficult' schools but for some people it's soul destroying. Working in a 'tough' school is a completely different kettle of fish to a 'nice' school. I've done both. Problem is it's usually more difficult to get a job in the 'nicer' schools as teachers who work there don't move. My ds's go to a 'nice' school. I think that most of the teachers have never worked anywhere else. (Personally I think that's wrong and that teachers should have to move about for their professional development - even if on secondment for a few terms.)

starlight I do think there are teachers who work especially well with the most challenging and can turn "terrible" schools around. (Note, I don't think these are me, but my dad has taught EBD/SEN students for his whole career and finds it incredibly rewarding)

I actually think working in Special Measures is (despite the observations) quite good as the LEA is determined to put in the support that the staff need.

But, as I said to you earlier in the thread, it sounds like you were just having a crap day of it and we all have those. Later posters seem to really think kids/parents are irredeemably shitty and I still think, whatever the challenges of this job, the kids deserve someone in front of them who thinks well of them for as much of the time as possible.

"If inclusion isn?t working then teachers need to stand up individually and as profession and say so"

"And you?re right I don?t have enough knowledge to question the bigger picture re the TES etc that was all pure waffle as I doont know what should happen - but I do know that on a personal level the attitude and sense of responsibility of a good teacher can transform a child life"

But don't you see welshwoman, that this is what I meant in the thread title? You blame teachers for the fact that inclusion isn't working but then you admit that you don't know how they can improve things.

Fwiw, I do think that if you work within a system then you need to do your best with what is in place but make your concerns heard and documented in appropritae forums (staff meetings etc). Most teachers - not al, I grant you - do this. Which is why it's especially galling to have (some) parents bitching about the fact that you are not "standing up individually and as profession".

'Goblinchild - please don't break ranks - you need to find something bad about the holidays and pension etc'

No, credit where credit's due.
I did a decade in a rough school in a shitty area, riots and murders and children coming to school in second-hand wellies because it was all parents could afford as footwear. Third generation unemployed, and mostly illiterate parents. Dealing and violent crime, in and out of the home. Front line, and I loved it.
Then I had children, and before they reached school age I left for the leafy green lovely parts of the country, because my children weren't going to live in those circumstances.

Down here the rudeness and the posturing of some children really annoys me, disrupts the class and wastes time.
And I go to the staffroom and fantasise about how long their arrogance and material possessions would stay intact if I took them back with me on a little field trip.

Goblin - my teaching path sonds similar to yours - the school in the 'bad area' was much better for me to work in and the kids though had loads of problems outside of school were grateful for what you did, whereas where I am now a middle class area are apathetic, arrogant and very rude.

I would go further as to say some of the staff in my current school wouldnt last five minutes the ethos and power playing in the staff room astounds me. Statisically it is the best school I have worked in but the worst to work for.

A lot of the staff have also never worked anywhere else and dont realise how things are done elsewhere ie more professional. It is very alpa male/female top down management.

And inclusion is working well for my son, 14,
because the school is fantastic at supporting him, and the bullying, chavvy pack element only ever pick on him once.
Then they find out that all sn children are different, and some aspies don't weep and flap and panic.
And once the individual concerned has picked themselves up and realised that they came on a bearhunt with nothing but a pointy stick, they let him be.

Starlight read your own posts please - you are the one who said inclusion isn?t working, as you have oh yes - 10 sen kids in every class and every lesson - all different strange sen?s that you have no experience of despite being a ??relatively?? experience teacher who reads a lot works weekends and gets ¼ less pay than other graduates who have easy jobs working in little cubicles where none asks them any questions or even talks to them except to ask how are they going to spend their next 6 weeks on holiday

I acknowledge that there are problems - mostly funding and a few teachers with attitudes that every parent who question anything are bitching - but I personally prefer it to segregation for anyone who isn?t NT and middle class

I have never bitched about teachers in any post - I have also said that inclusion has worked for my son but he has had teachers with a positive attitude and parents who question/bitch a lot

Goblinchild - my aspie does not flap either - in fact is a bit of a crusader in the face of injustice lol very often gets him in trouble

?Welshwoman - I think you ought to go into teaching - you seem obsessed and envious with the pay and conditions!

What, the job doesn't fit in with you wanting to be around for your kids? But five minutes ago it was soooo family-friendly??

Shame, I really liked you and though the debate was interesting - I have agreed that I am envious - but the job is reasonably family friendly compared to a lot of jobs and it does have good conditions - it?s a shame you refuse to acknowledge that and just keep harping on as If I?m some envious little shit who hates anyone who earn more/ has more than them

Besides I?m way over qualified J

It isn't possible to be an over-qualified teacher because you need to know everything about everything. Especially in primary. :P
So the more degrees you have, and diplomas and thingummyjigs with shiny bits on, the better.

Except the letters fall off the end of any envelope addressed to me.
And the more qualifications, the more likely the school is to want to appoint an NQT instead and save money.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Despite several teachers confirming that upwards of ten pupil on the SEN register is not unusual, you are implying that I've made it up.

As for your confusion as to whether or not I do any research on SEN... Tell you what, welshwoman, I'll say it again shall I?

"...[I have spent](at least) two hours research on Dyspraxia in my time as a teacher. I've said that I do the research that I can. I'm not an SEN denier and I'm being not deliberately obstructive, I try to apply the little knowledge that I have. I am just acknowledging that I am not in any way an expert on Dyspraxia and I'm sure that if I was given more time and more training then I could meet the needs of my dyspraxic students better."

This is what you (later) harranged me with:

"... spend what say 2 hours reading a little about it - Knowledge that will last you a life time of teaching and most of which is transferable from one SEN situation to another..."

So what's your beef? I already do what you are demanding. I said so some time previously.

And I'm struggling to understand why you keep banging on about the holidays and the pay. I don't think the pay is bad, and have never said otherwise. The pay is adjusted to account for the holidays, that's just a fact - teachers get paid rather less than doctors and lawyers etc (that is professions rather than graduate jobs).

Where have you got the idea that I (or most teachers) don't have a positive attitude to SEN children? I don't have a positive attitude to the lack of time and support I'm given in dealing with them, but I do my best to teach those children well and help them achieve the very best that they can.

I'm not suggesting that any parent of a child with SEN shouldn't "question". Of course you should, you are absolutely right to fight for your child. All I am saying is that blaming the teacher is futile and unfair. You're pointing the finger in the wrong direction. The teacher shares your concerns and frustrations.

Your thing about NT and middle class... I have no idea what you're on about, frankly.

OMG most teachers have very little expertise with SEN children and rely on SENCO and support staff to guide them.

You do not recieve specialist training that covers every SEN variation and by this I mean each specific learning difficulty varys from how it is child to child.

Welshwomen - most staff i know do what they can when they can for all children.

Most teachers work in intensives bursts during term time and average 50/60 hr weeks. The first week of the holidays is spent resting and the last one preparing.

You also have no idea just how bad the verbal abuse can be from older children and it does grind you down some parents defend their kids to the hit even when shown video evidence which a lot of schools are resorting to.

I love teaching but find it increasingly hard to operate in a system that is re-hashed constantly. I am seeking to get out before anyone tells me to -and I do feel sad about this.

"... SEN, which I probably know very little about ?? despite having 10 or so SEN kids in every class you teach and all that work you do at home? ,,

Despite several teachers confirming that upwards of ten pupils on the SEN register is not unusual, you are implying that I've made it up.

Yes but they are not all 10 different and strange SEN are they and they do not change each year or do they?

And I'm struggling to understand why you keep banging on about the holidays and the pay. I don't think the pay is bad, and have never said otherwise. The pay is adjusted to account for the holidays that are just a fact - teachers get paid rather less than doctors and lawyers etc (that is professions rather than graduate jobs).

Most not all primary school teachers do not have evident qualifications to Doctors or layers - That?s just a fact - you do get paid more that many nurses and other professions with no shift work - few weekends - That?s just a fact

Suffering from the fall out of "inclusion" which means that so much of my time is spent fire fighting (see a, b and c) that I don't have the time to spend on your child that they deserve. - Oh yes that?s when you said inclusion wasn?t working

If you are a C or a D parent, then get thee to the Head, the governors, the local MP and kick up an almighty fuss. You're right to be upset, I don't blame you, I'm not happy about it either but what can I do? I'm doing my very best but I can't fight the system on my own.

Most problems with SN kids are small day to day stuff you need to be able to talk to the class teacher about

Goodness I could go on but its boring - you just change your tack and accuse me of hating all teachers when I think the main part of most of my post have been - I think most teachers do a wonderful job under difficult circumstances hey ho

ROFL at the idea of someone not being able to teach because they are 'over qualified'!!!

I've heard of people not being skilled enough, confident enough, patient enough or industrious enough... but being 'over qualified' is a new one on me!!

Why are teachers always compared to nurses? Drives me mad.

Few class teachers are experts on all aspects of SEN and in a class with 10 SEN children it is highly unlikely that 2 will have exactly the same needs.

I'm a primary teacher with a good honours degree and a MA and earn considerably less than a doctor or lawyer or even my friend who is a midwife (no degree).

I usually spend at least half of my holidays in school working and work every night and most weekends. Next weekend I am attending a conference on assessment ...unpaid.

Hells bells, I simply cannot understand you.

I've told you what I do. You've told me what you expect. This rather arbitrary Two hours research. Assuming we are both being straight, they are the same thing .

So the worst you can accuse me of is being falsely modest or of having too high expectations of myself.

Or am I being thick? What am I missing here?

Personally, I stand by the assesrtion that a few hours research means that I know very little about that SEN. I'd like more training or I'd like more time in which to research it and I'd like smaller class-sizes to improve this situation, but unfortunately that seems unlikely in the near future.

What's an "evident" qualification? I have a degree, a Masters and a PGCE. I am a secondary school teacher, but to my certain knowledge, primary teachers also need a PGCE (or a BEd, I suppose) to teach, making it a post graduate profession.

Nurses are abysmally paid. It's a bloody disgrace. I don't see what that has got to to with this discussion though.

I still don't understand your problem with teachers' pay. Do you want us to be paid less ? Please explain.

I don't see where I have "changed tack" but will gladly clarify anything I've said for you if you like. Though I seem to have done this several times already

This thread seems to have turned into rather a bitch-fest, doesn't it?

I love teaching, teach many, many SEN pupils (many of whom are L1 or L2 at secondary) and still feel exhausted and gripey sometimes. Usually though, thegriping is about the paperwork, or the lack of time, or the demands that pull me in too many different directions (and away from the classroom) rather than about the pupils.

And having to go on weekend conferences, unpaid, is a particular gripe at the moment!

Also, you are "over qualified" to teach?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Wow.

Lawdy, I've had entire classes of SEN students of one kind or another. Even if they have the same diagnosis, each of them has different needs, some of them are so complex that even the psychologists can't work out what the problem is and some have new issues diagnosed mid course. I have a psychology degree, amongst others, and believe me, knowing what a condition is and how it manifests is very little help in coping with how these needs manifest in a classroom, especially when you are trying to cope with 18 others with equally complex problems.

We can only spread ourselves so far. Teachers who last beyond 5 years tend to have developed coping strategies for the workload and the burden of unrealistic expectations. Walk a mile in our shoes before you start slagging us off.

Grrr at the over-qualified to teach (which was undoubtedly said to wind people up and has done).
For the record my masters and PhD are in aspects of history that are not on the national curriculum. Now, am I over-qualified to teach or under-qualified as I don't have a degree that covers the whole of world history? What a stupid, inflammatory thing to say

I think maybe the intention was to wind people up, but the outcome is that welshwomen has made herself look ridiculous.

I wonder if she'll come back and tell us exactly how she is 'over qualified'!!

Now I'm posting with my 'mother of an Aspie' hat on.
The idea that if you've read up for a couple of hours on ASDs you become an expert on what an Asperger's child is like is one that I've had to fight all through G's time in school.
How odd for the mother of a spectrum child not to appear to recognise that if you've encountered one Aspie, then you've met one Aspie.
The next child along with an ASD dx might well
be completely different with very different needs.
Teacher hat on, with gown and square and a suitcase for all the paperwork that shows how qualified I really am

The same will hold true of other SNs, and certainly in my experience of EAL.

Am I the only one still awake and working?

Over-dedicated and under-organised. Too much to do and not enough hours in the day.

I am a Primary teacher with many SEN (varying reasons) on my class register - 8 out of 30 and am about to put another 4 on the "trawl form" meaning that I have concerns about their achievement in Maths and/or English.
I have parents that drive me nuts! Fussy and precious! The Precious ones particularly annoy me.
I also have "naughty" children that test me every single day. (DRIVES ME TOTALLY NUTS!)

I am particularly driven to the depths of despair when my precious and naughty combine i.e. on a school trip to the British Museum!

I know I am talking about younger children than the OP, but I am also very well versed in the "I know he is no angel but ..."

I just wanted to say that this is a very demanding job (I have an 8 yr old and 5 yr old and have been working full time as a single parent for the last 4 years)- okay we have the holidays - So? Does that make up for the time we don't spend with them during term time? Emotionally and physically I mean.

I do feel that my children have very little mum time during the week

I find it extremely difficult...

Oh dear - sorry that everyone is so upset by a mistake caused by my SEN - I have severe dyslexia and have to cut and paste from word - if you notice the little j after ?? I?m way over qualified?? - that?s supposed to be a wink but obviously it does not come out as that - I don?t even have a degree so am not even qualified enough to teach.

I do however stand by what I said to Violethill - I am envious but don?t mention your terms and conditions because of that but in the context of relativity to people with jobs in the commercial/ sphere who also have to do ??work in their own time ??

Goblinchild - I?m still working - trying to earn enough money for a tutor for my middle child
I donnt want to upset you but every child is unique with or without SEN but ??with my aspie parents ?? head on, most SN needs children have a group of symptoms which differentiate them. You are taking my 2 hour reading thing from the context which Starlightexpress uses it - It was originally said in response to a post of So you want me to spend my own time reading about your childs SEN? not as some golden rule