To want parents to stop blaming their child's teacher for everything?

[starlightexpress]

I'm just so sick of reading parents on here moaning about how crap their child's teacher is for one reason or another (not aimed at any particular thread this evening, btw).

In any given class of thirty-three, seventy percent of my time is spent dealing with about three kids who couldn't give a fuck. They don't want to learn, they don't want anyone else to learn. I'm not talking SEN, here, I'm talking just plain naughty.

As far as I'm concerned, the majority of the time when a parent is on here moaning about how shitty their child's teacher is, it falls into one of four categories.

Either your child is:

a)Badly brought up and you're making excuses for them.

b)So-called "SEN" which means they can behave when they want to, but misbehave most of the time using said SEN as an excuse. You allow them to do this because you prefer not to take any responsibility for their behaviour.

c)Genuinely suffering from an SEN, which I probably know very little about and am given little support (either in terms of training or TAs or resources)for.

d)Suffering from the fall out of "inclusion" which means that so much of my time is spent firefighting (see a, b and c) that I don't have the time to spend on your child that they deserve.

Of course there are crap teachers. There are also medicore teachers and there are good teachers who have crap days and make crap judgements sometimes. But mostly it is not your child's teacher's fault.

If you are a C or a D parent, then get thee to the Head, the governers, the local MP and kick up an almighty fuss. You're right to be upset, I don't blame you, I'm not happy about it either but what can I do? I'm doing my very very best but I can't fight the system on my own.

If you're an A or a B parent, do what the fuck you want - that's what you do anyway, and I'm not interested in your whining.

Before you ask, I teach in an inner city secondary school. Not the worst school in the whole world but not great either.

I'm a relatively experienced teacher with a decent results record. I don't have classroom management issues - last Ofsted (they actally watched some of my lesson) they said that this was a strength, fwiw. It's worth nothing actually, as Ofsted couldn't identify one end of a decent lesson from another, but I know their opinion matters to a lot of you.

Go on, flame me, I will have heard worse at parents evening, I can take it.

AIBU?

Sorry oops - xposted.

Really am going to bed now.

I dont think yabu at all , my daughter had a very poor teacher in reception and is still struggling to catch up in year 2 .However the teacher in question had had several horrendous things happen in her personal life and was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Yes thats not my or my dds fault but i think i would have been a pretty crap human being to add to the poor ladies suffering . I also accept that as a parent ,how well dd does at school is at least 50% down to how well she is supported at home . If she comes out of school and says her teacher shouted at her or told her off ,my first reaction is 'what did you do'. My mother taught for 30 yrs and if i came out of school and told her id got into trouble ,i would get a telling off from her . I quickly learnt that life isnt always fair ,sometimes you get told off when you shouldnt and sometimes you have to accept that as part of lifes rich tapestry. I really do feel for you ,there are plenty of parents out there ,none on mn obviousley,who march into school with the 'how dare you tell off my child' attitude, when actually as you have alluded to its the parents who need a good b*llocking

I am a teacher in an inner-city secondary school and I actually get parents ringing me up accusing me of lying about their child, making up their bad behaviour. Yeah, I have so much free time that I sit around picking on individual children.
Parents who always take their child's side agains the school arean't doing them any favours.

My mum was sn teacher and turned down promotions because it would mean she had less time to teach.
The amount of times she came home bitten, or bruised from being kicked and generally assaulted I can't count and she said that it was not the kids fault that they had special needs and it was a privilege to teach them.
However she regularly talked about children who she thought in 30 years of teaching didn't have sn but were just badly behaved and lacking in any support at all at home. And it was easier for their parents to say they had sn rather than deal with the problems.
YANBU.
I think daily how lucky my ds is to have a great teacher and often say there is no way I could do that job.

There isn't enough money in the world for me to be convinced to be a teacher.

It's hard work but the money is crap.

DS is only just in Reception and in a private school where teachers appear to be valued and payed well, so we have happy teachers - and guess what that translates to? HAPPY KIDS who would have thought it!

I have friends who are teachers and some of the stories they tell are horrific. You have my sympathies.

starlight, I don't think YABU and I'm a parent not a teacher. My children know how to behave. I have never had a single complaint from a teacher about them (not even a euphemism like "chatty" or "a natural leader" or "needs to work on his concentration"). And yes, I specifically ask, every parents' evening.

I'm pissed off with all the other little buggers who, by my DS1s teacher's own admission, prevent DS1 from getting the education he should be getting.

Tell me, do you agree with my hope that sending them private in y7 (they're y3 and y5 now) will help?

The money is not crap.
Admittedly me and my friends all have arts degrees (and higher degrees!) but I earn more than those who work in academia/civil service/sames and marketing.

Teachers in private schools generally get paid less because they can employ people who don't have teaching qualifications and the competition is stiffer!

The money looks pretty rubbish to me. Looks like it tops out at around 60k a year for advanced teaching skills (excluding head teachers) in Inner London.

Relative levels of crap obviously, but for say someone like my DH to consider switching teaching maths/science/IT it would need to be paying 100k plus. As I said, I wouldn't touch the job if they were paying anything.

Kids + me don't get on!

I think we must be very lucky, (although it isn't really about luck, it is about his right to education imo) DS2 has SN, hearing impairement and Speech and language delay, and has a full statement including his own full time TA. He also gets support at lunchtime. He doesn't detract any time or attention from the other children as he has his own support. If anything I think the school occasionally use the TA as his teacher and maybe he misses out.

I also have an older son who has no SN and I do feel sorry for the teachers when I hear some parents moaning, it must be incredibly difficult to please all of the parents all of the time. We all have sightly different expectations. If DS1 comes out of school with no homework on a Friday, we all skip home with happiness whilst another parent will go in for a word about lack of progression etc. It's all so subjective.

Inclusion can work, and indeed it has worked for us so far. I have only had one comment about the extra attention that DS2 gets and I was really pissed off about it, and asked if she would like her child to have his difficulties as well as his extra help then.

My dh after 25 years in the same firm, in a job with managerial responsibilities and requiring a degree, as well as being physically demanding, finally arrived at the same level of pay as a newly qualified teacher. The difference is, he is relatively well paid for his field, so it seemed good money to us. It's all about expectations.

I have a lot of sympathy for you. I'm amazed at many of the attitudes I see on here towards teachers.

Well when it comes to genuine SN / SEN (I have 2 on the register in MS, one statemented, and ialso one in a SNU) I think hard cheese- we didn't choose that option either funnily enough, it's not that great for the boys either.

But yes there are these aprents, they're annoying (I can think of one in particualr) but that'slife in any job that involves the public.

OTOH I could tell you a few stories where silly school rules and disinterested teachers have actually caused injury to my children (one permanent damage) so it's not all one way.

(BTW thre idea- not in the OP just generally) that SEN kids are always a problem is a fallacy. DS3, asd and now in a specialist resource, is described by teachers as 'deligtful', ds2 as really entusiastic, kid and a joy to teach. OK so they need extra resources and support to learn but they're not to blame for that.

DS1 is a PITA for the school, but in his case I;'d say blame the LEA as if there was a suitable SN provision for him both and I wouldlove him to attend. But there isn't, and he has to be educated somehow.

I agree peachy, I really resent the implication that children with SN are always a pain. As I said having DS2 in school has provided the class with a whole other member of staff. They do alot of small group work, so the others benefit too.

Stands up and applauds. Eleven years of teaching in FE and believe me, everything you say rings true.

I taught courses where the entry requirement was 4 GCSEs at grade E or below. The students I had could be divided more or less equally into 4 categories.
A) Genuine SEN, often borderline or undiagnosed (until they got to us)
B) Recent immigrants with poor English
C) Students who are routinely taken out of school for long holidays abroad, frequently during GCSE year.
D) Gangsters, deliquients, students who have been at pupil referral units, those on probation and those who simply have no idea how to behave in polite society.

As they were over 16, there is no legal requirement to keep them in education. Within 6 weeks we would usually have lost most of group D, usually to cries of "You can't do that to me"...Oh yes we can dear, this is what happens when you refuse to take responsibility for your own behaviour. Group B would drift off by January as the requirement to attend classes is too much for them, leaving grous A and B who, having been shorn of the disruptive elements for possibly the first time in their lives, flourished and achieved beyond the low expectations they set themselves. I have seen some of these students graduate university, it just kills me that they would have done it a lot quicker if they had been given the opportunity to learn instead of waiting for the teachers to deal with the disruptive element first.

I am constantly amazed at parents who seem to think that it is part of my job to ring students first thing in the morning to get them out of bed because they "can't manage it".

This interests me, Starlightexpress; "SEN, which I probably know very little about "

Why?

Do the children in your school not have statements, school action, action plus? Do you not have a Special Needs register you can read?

How long have you been a teacher?

I ask because IME, teachers are the one section of the population who have seen every SEN, and could probably find them easier to diagnose than Doctors.

I certainly recognise that there are always a proportion of children who couldn't care less.

But it's your claim of a kind of powerlessness or bewilderment in the face of genuine special needs that worries me.

slug Really? They expect you to ring them up in the morning? My God!!

starlight - I agree with you. My DCs have been through nearly 14 child-years of teaching in this family so far. And not one of the teachers has been, from my POV, a 'bad' teacher. There have been less effective ones, some that might have been abit too strict for my individual DC, some were too soft, but not a single one that wasn't approachable, friendly and as far as I can see, dedicated. But from what you hear in the playground you'd think they were all appalling! So often the moans aren't about their teaching abilities, but about loss of school kit, pupils not getting a place in the school play, complaints about a punishment, complaints about too much hw or not enough hw, complaints about SATs (noth teachers' fault), complaints that the teacher is 'picking' on a child because she kept him'her in for not finishing work.

It would demoralise a f*ing saint TBH.

We're all supposed to be on the same side aren't we?

YANBU. DDs education could also be affected by her teacher being stretched to the limit by children 'who can be a bit of a handful but...' DD is bright as a button but last had her reading listened to at school about a week ago because the teacher (by her own admission) has to spend so much time with the kids who don't do their reading at home full stop. Or spend their time physically attacking each other the second her back is turned. Governers are well aware and are tring to 'negotiate' funds for extra support for these boys as they have no specific diagnosis or statement.

But teachers tend to fall into the same category as health visitors - easy pickings for folks who don't want to see what impact their parenting might be having on their child and his health and education.

Oh yes slightlycrumpled. Some parents don't seem to be able to distinguish between teacher and parent. As for the students, nothing is ever their responsibility. the standard response when asked why, given their obvious intelligence, their GCSE scores were slow low is "The teacher didn't teach me" Which generally translates as "I wanted to be entertained and every time the teacher insisted on me doing some work I whined, moaned and misbehaved until it was too late".

I have actually had students put their hands up in exams and ask for help on a question, then throw a tantrum get upset when I refuse to help them.

At the school where I was a TA, one of the parents believed in her little darling's sainthood so much she rang up to complain that he had not been taught anything to do with the subject in question, which is why he had walked out of his SATs exam.

I was lucky enough to be in the lesson where the teacher revealed this to the pupil - in front of the class - and reminded him of all the lessons he had pissed about in, the revision sheets he had been given etc etc AND assured them that his mum now knew this.

[gratified emoticon]

Although my GCSE results were low for more ability (now a graduate) and that was larely ecause the teachers called me cretin to my face, and treated me generally like a leper becuase of things I couldn't change (specifically aring responsibilities I had at the time- depressed mother and father).

I have no doubt 90% of teachers are great for the average non - SEN child, that's vcertainly my experience with my boys, but a far greater number are not when presented with a child with SN (some vague idea that the child should be in a SNU it seems

Slug and Starlight, I don't how you do it - you have my unending admiration. I simply wouldn't have the patience or diplomacy deal with it.

YANBU-

And bogwobbit- why should the life of a teacher be like that? If there was more dicipline at home then mabe our schools would be more orderly.
I am fed up to the back teeth of parents who say ''dd/ds says you are picking on him/her.'' An dthe prevailant view that teacher is a servant to their darling angel.
I am a crap teacher anyway but I can definately see that there is no respect for authority anymore. So many kids are spoilt.
That's not to say that teachers always get it right but I often felt like a glorified babysitter.

YANBU - I/we are struggling my arse off so my children can go Private. No way am I putting them through what I did as a child who wanted desperately to learn but was just stopped in her tracks by thugs who had no desire to get on and make something of themselves. It meant nothing for them if we didn't have a lesson and didn't pass our GCSEs. We copied text out of an English book for a year, that was our English lesson as the Teacher had a nervous breakdown. These girls were all Pregnant by that time anyway. No SN going on here - they were actually highly intelligent in their own way.

Funny that their parents were the ones who were at the school office physically and verbally abusing the teachers, arguing for their childrens' limitations and backing up their appalling behavior. I still can't add up properly, I have no clue where certain countries are on a map, I had to work twice as hard when I got to college and Uni as I didn't have basic concepts.

I work with DD Teachers and I admire most of them tremendously.