To hope that Gordon Brown doesn't resign?

[mrsruffallo]

I still don't think he is doing a bad job. I think he is a very caring and intelligent politician, and I hope he stays.
Am I the only one who feels like this?

TD - Hilary Benn is a bit dull on the surface, but then so was John Smith and everyone thought he'd be the saviour of the labour party. Shame he had to die before his time.

• Howto I wonder, is the right swing people rejecting socialism or rejecting Europe? I think it's the latter. Historically in times of depression the right surges ahead because a down turn rachets up an each to their own philosophy, which is what personally I loathe and it doesn't stack up either on an individual level or on an economic one. We're far better off in Europe than we'd be without. But I suspect we'd never agree on that one either.
• am still a mite amazed that anyone would think this government is giving out benefits too easily. The amount of people in genuine poverty and the divide between rich and poor in this country is staggering imo, but hey you're right we will never agree. Lastly on your reply to Missiemac - d'you know I wouldn't expect you to be a Labour supporter with your background. Lots of Tories are working class - my parents are prime examples and look how I ended up. Am surprised they haven't disowned me. In a democracy, any free thinker from whatever background makes up their own mind, which is what is let's face it what's great about living here. I know we'll never agree, but it's good to debate and fantastic to live in a country where we're able to.

From the Sunday Times, editorial, yesterday.

This, of course, is the overriding theme of the moment. Voters are fed up with politicians and fed up with the bloated public sector they are supporting with their taxes. Today we report the extent to which quangocrats are milking the system, spending large sums of public money wining and dining fellow members of the quangocracy. Presiding over this is Mr Brown, exposed over the past week as irretrievably weak, leading a doomed government well beyond its sell-by date. However craven the behaviour of his ministers, a strong prime minister would not have allowed it to happen. The bloated public sector is his creation.

Mr Brown is weaker than John Major was at his lowest point. In 1993 the former Tory prime minister decided that he wanted to replace his old ally Norman Lamont as chancellor. Mr Lamont refused to accept another cabinet job but Mr Major went ahead anyway. Faced with a similar threat last week to quit the cabinet, Mr Brown left Alistair Darling in place as chancellor. He has even had to pack his cabinet with seven unelected peers, hardly an advertisement for a healthy democracy.

Beleaguered prime ministers have recovered before, but Mr Brown looks like a dead man walking. Replacing him with a different leader ahead of an election would not wash. Voters would not accept another unelected prime minister. We do not need a change at the top in Labour; we need an election. Our preference was for a poll this autumn but, as events lurch from bad to worse, the case for an election to be held sooner grows stronger.

howtotellmum "Voters would not accept another unelected prime minister."

You elect a parliamentary party, not a Prime Minister.

Hence why after Anthony Eden resigned after the Suez fiasco in 1957, Harold MacMillan became PM and then he resigned to be replaced by Sir Alec Douglas-Home, all without going to the electorate.

Simiarly Thatcher resigning to be replaced by John Major.

On a totally shallow level, Gordon Brown makes my skin crawl and the sooner I don't have to see his odd mouth-open expression the better. I used to be a a very junior local radio journalist and interviewed him and Tony Blair once. Tony Blair didn't have the magnetism I expected and Gordon Brown had a weak, sweaty handshake. Bllleeeuurggh!

Howtotellmum - you've been very lucky to have your family allowance as an extra and this is what i meant about means testing looking at outgoings as well as income !! our FA isn't a nice little booster cushion, we rely on it and without it we would have very little disposable income to pay for things like christmas and birthday presents.We both work hard and claim no benefits (apart from £30 a month tax credits). Why should we scrimp and save to make ends meet? And as for the money going to schools and hospitals, yes it does but it pays for middle managers who sit in offices all day devising targets and league tables rather than for facilities and qualified staff who could actually make a difference!

"spokette*- the article is from The Times- they are not my words.

However, as you ask...I agree that people elect a party, not a government, but there was a diffrence between what happened to Mrs T and T Blair- Mrs T lost the support of her cabinet, and her party elected another leader,which was democratic within the party, whereas TB stood down and GB was "promoted" without a contest.

I know that people ought to elect a party, but on the other hand, plenty of people take the party leader into account, rather than just their local MP when casting their vote!

There is a huge amount of ill feeling at present that GB has been dumped on the country, rather than elected. Whether you vote Labour ot Tory, or any other party, you can't deny that this feeling is present.

ToughDaddy: I don't judge politicians on their looks either I just commented on what I though GB looked like. On his performance he has been completely beholden to previous Tory monetary policies and at the behest of the banks. Had he and Blair abandoned Tory policy in 1997 we may not be suffering as much as we are now! Even Hague [I seem to recall] called Brown the "credit card Chancellor" some years ago.

daftpunk: Sorry I misread your earlier comments - I think Brown is definitely Stalin/Napoleon!

shelco- without going into persoanl details about my income, you really don't know whether we have been "lucky" or not, by being able to save some of the FA. We were prudent, and lived within our means.

I think our attitude to it was it was an extra, that could change at any time, depending on the whim of the politicians, so we banked it when we could and saved it. We never regarded it as secure income, nor took it into account when buying a home or budgeting, because it was a benefit outside of our control- we budgeted within our income only.

We have enormous outgoings in terms of a mortgage, but on the other hand we have always holidayed cheaply in the UK- my kids have never had a holiday abroad as a family, except for one stay with friends.

Howtotellmum, when Tony Blair stood down, there was an election for the leader of the Labour Party - an open election which GB won - ok, no-one else stood against him, but they were entitled to do so. GB was not simply 'promoted' to be the leader of the Party.

YANBU

I feel sad for GB because he is the victim of our shallow, media obsessed society.

His attention is on his day job, not frothing to the media but appearance is more important than substance these days. I find comments about his jaw etc pathetic.

There is no substance with Cameron, just froth and I hate the idea of him being elected over someone who has intelligence, conviction and a sense of duty to do what is right for the majority rather than the few.

Apparently that weird slack-jawed thing Gordon does is to disguise/limit a stammer. Has always irritated me but if it's true I shall try to be more understanding.

Doesn't change the fact that he's been a bloody disaster as a PM though. The abolition of the 10p tax rate was a primal moment - a final two fingers to the ordinary working people Labour has always been supposed to represent. I bet that is responsible for some of the vote going to the BNP - disillusioned working class voters thinking, well, Labour's told us to sod off, so we will.

I'm a confirmed LibDem voter but have sympathy for GB. The economy is looking up and recession could lift in next 6-12 months. This is ahead of most of Europe and the US. GB made bold decisions, unlike the Tory party, and we must all hope that he is successul, otherwise we'll have even higher unemployment and respossessions. His attitude to women is worrying, but we've all worked for men like that. Labour party should back him and move media away from political gossip, which they love, and back on to policy and their successes. The Tory party are in no position to take over. What are there policies? We don't know!!! It's all a worry. Vote for PR then it would all change!

GB made the Bank of England independent. The Tories would not have done that and if they had been in power, this recession would have been far worse (they would not have intervened) and interest rates would have been in double figures.

If the Tories get in power, it will be interesting to see if they can keep their grubby hands off the Bank of England.

'Simiarly Thatcher resigning to be replaced by John Major.'

John Major held another election shortly afterwards, spokette. Gordon Brown refused to do so.

He is still unelected--and unwanted by most people in this country. (If you counted all the actual Labour votes and all actual the Conservative votes in the last election, Labour would not have won.)

I like his wife, though.

Sorry--not as quickly after he became PM (1990) as I had thought: 1992.

But we're still waiting for Gordon to be elected.

howtotellmum

We do not all think there should have been a general election when Gordon Brown took over as PM. I for one was glad to see the back of Tony Blair and Cherie. I'm not defending GBs policies I am just glad we didn't have to endure TB any longer...I am not a labour voter anyway.

I find it worrying that with so many MPs GB has had to resort to having so many unelected advisors...I think the cabinet should be formed from the party's MPS only. One could criticise GB but whatabout his enemies...I wouldn't want to see Byers, Blears, Flint etc back in govt with a change of leader...not to mention blunkett, prescott, charles clark etc...they were all truly awful. The reason GB is still there is probably because the labour party don't have anyone better to replace him with.

How about Peter Mandelson?

You know, it really wouldn't surprise me. That man is like one of the lizards we're told will survive the final catalclysm and crawl out of a hole somewhere to take over the universe when everything else has been wiped out.

I do quite like him. In the same way that I like watching Lord Voldemort.

Thatcher paid more attention to her unelected advisors rather than her elected MPs, especially Sir Alan Walters who clashed with Geoffry Howe causing Howe to resign and then stick it to Thatcher in that memorable speech in the House of Commons.

spokette..I don't like the idea of all these unelected advisors whichever part is in govt

"when Tony Blair stood down, there was an election for the leader of the Labour Party - an open election which GB won - ok no-one else stood against him"

I like that- an election even though no-one else stood- hmm.

No-one stood against him because no-one else thought that they were good enough to go into the ring against Gordy. Doesn't say much for the leadership of the Labour Party, does it?

edam, the 10% tax cut was utterly daft, but the truth was that proportionally it made a lot of low income people better off - the thing GB forgot was the very low income people who it made poorer. A very, very bad call - I'd say probably from an exhausted man who's been in a position of power for too long and didn't add it all up. Hardly his best moment or a recommendation, but it was apparently made with good intentions..

"I'd say probably from an exhausted man who's been in a position of power for too long and didn't add it all up. Hardly his best moment or a recommendation, but it was apparently made with good intentions.."

ROFL. That's just too forgiving. It's no wonder that Labour is out-of-touch with the general electorate if that's the level of criticism within the party.

BTW, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I know fembear, whole thing's laughable, but surely it's better to be well intended but flawed, than an outright attempt to stuff people on their uppers.

Who is trying to stuff people on their uppers?