To hope that Gordon Brown doesn't resign?

[mrsruffallo]

I still don't think he is doing a bad job. I think he is a very caring and intelligent politician, and I hope he stays.
Am I the only one who feels like this?

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

Says it all about the two main political Parties!

I went right off Cameron when i read in Thetimes lastSunday thathe intends to get rid of family allowance for those on over £50k a year. Talk about hitting the middle income families! When will these people start to take account of outgoings as well as income when they means test? After all they often do when you apply for loans and mortgages. I work part time and my DH full time in professional jobs but once mortgage, food and bills are paid, not to mention clothes etc for our 4 children, there's not much left. Without family allowance we'd be stuffed!

Go Gordon! I agree with all who are for him. I think he's a safe pair of hands and a proper Statesman, in the old fashioned vein - a deep thinker and someone who cares for the greater good of the people. I don't care that he has the charisma of a cabbage. I don't need a media savvy PM. He's the man for me - I hope he can weather the storm.

David Cameron - don't make me laugh. How would a privately educated haw-haw with a wife who has a 'career' and a household staff, have any inkling of how real life is lived for those of us who can't afford those privileges in spite of working hard? Why would I want a man like that to be deciding policies that will affect my & my children's lives. Never.

Did someone call DC charming and pretty?

lol lucia39....is GB leon trotsky?

Lucia39 - your Animal farm quote made me laugh.

Mrsruffallo- yes DC is a nice, charming Toff. A throw back to decent Tories like Douggie herd and Michael Hesletine. He is not a bad chap, I assure you even though I am not voting for him.

daftpunk: Nah Trotsky had been dead for over four years before Orwell published.

GB is a useless t**sser and IMO resembles a second-rate undertaker!

Now the following really does sum up virtually the entire pack of 'em especially the references to peculation and venality!

"It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonoured by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money. Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth? Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors. In the name of God, go!"

shelco- I think it is an excellent idea to get rid of family allowance for familes earning a reasonable amount- say £50K.
It has always seemed absurd to me that all families were entitled to this, irrespective of their income.

missimac- The days when the "toffs" had no idea how the other half lived are gone. DC has just lost a son and all the time he was ill, he was treated by the NHS, with DC and his wife sleeping on hospital floors.

Also, his children attend state schools.

I think it is the height of arrogance, as well as being incredibly patronising, for anyone to suggest that because a person belongs to one "class" or another, they have no idea about other people's lives.

My career has brought me into contact with the wealthy and the disadvantaged. Underneath,all people want the same for their families.

The days of the class war are surely over- this "us" and "them" attitude.

Have we forgotten that T Blair was privately educated, as were his kids?

He was a toff if ever there was one- though he tried very hard not to be with his "dropped T's"!
He too had a wife who had a career, and they had oodles of staff,including the delightful Miss Kaplan to give then "lifestyle" advice!

I don't give a toss whether a PM went to Eton or the local comp- what matters is how they and their team run the country.

All I want is for GB to go- and end his manic drive for distribution of wealth- socialism- which is dying in every country in Europe, and someone to reign in the welfare state which has become an all-consuming beast, allowing too many people to receive benefits too eaily, at the expense of the hard working middle classes.

I think it is disgusting to cut family allowance for those on 50k or more.....the three main parties seem to want to take from the middle earners to subsidise the less well off...why don't they tax the rich? (earning 100k or more) 50k is not a lot of money in my area given that a 3 bed home costs over 300k and a 4 bed 500k plus.

I don't have anything against toffs- some of my very best friends are toffs . As I said, DC is a decent bloke, in my opinion. But I work with lots of decent blokes who only care about their bank balances and children's education. On a day to day basis I am probably quite similar to them but when I vote, I want to vote for a party that will look after the wider interest of society. Altho' I see DC improving the image of the Tory brand, I still want to hear some more specifics on what the Tories stand for. I will never say that I would not vote for the Tories but I am not yet convinced that they aren't still really only concerned with serving the interests of the better off?

Lucia39- as we said, GB loses the beauty contest to DC but I try hard not to judge politicians on their looks.

HW- prices are the same where I live, but i think at tmes we have to look outside our own circumstances, and think about what is best for the country in the longer term.

I fully agree with you over the costs of living- my DCs are too old to qualify for Family Allowance- or rather I am- but our outgoings are higher as we support them at university. So on one level I am worse off without FA, as I have still have to support my kids, but even if I WAS eligible, I would feel it was wrong in m any ways. I think that any benefits should be aimed at the really poor and disabled.

The other point is, there simply are not enough high earners to make any real difference to the chancellor's pot of tax. I haven't got the figures to hand, but have seen them before- and if you were totax everyone who earned over £100K, then the income to the treasury would be very small.
You have also go to balance increasing tax against the "brain drain" and lack of motivation to earn more money, which could hit small business owners.

The Treasury cannot get the money it needs without hitting the middle classses, and it has always had to do this.

And if you think £100K is a lot, in many cases it is not- think of two teachers, both at the top of the scale- one maybe a Head- and they would almost be on that sum.

howtotellmum - It sounds so nice there in fairyland.

TD-a lotof women find GB very attractive- some of them here on MN

missimac- is that the best response you can give?

Give some real facts, not prejudices please- all the facts I gave about TB etc are true- all the prejudices you mentioned are purely that.

Bye Brownie.......

Now bring on someone who cares about all aspects of society.

Is it true that Shrek, the handsome prince version in Shrek 2, was based on GB?

howtotellmum - sorry, unable to engage in intelligent political debate with you today, many reasons, but mostly cos I've got to get the tea on . . .

MrsRuffallo- understood, like lots of women find Gérard Depardieu attractive, right.

Just joking but TDaddy does recognise a man of substance in GB.

howtotellmum - the fact that 2 teachers can have a joint income of 100k shows teachers are not paid that badly doesn't it?

If you think 100k is not that much how can you agree with people losing child benefit on 50k. Is it because you have had the child benefit for your children so don't care about those of us still going through the early years. No doubt when my children are at university age the fees will be even higher. I doubt there will be a state pension when I retire either...all the things pensioners get now (free bus pass, swimming etc) will probably have been scrapped to.

If the government want to scrounge from anyone why don't they means test some of the handouts for the over 60s...millionaire pensioners can get free bus passes, free swimming, winter fuel allowance etc. etc....I think the poorest pensioners should be given more but the wealthy ones shouldn't need state hand outs surely?

The treasury is already getting money from those on 50k as they are paying higher rate tax and don't qualify for all the free childcare etc. that those on lower salaries get. Why should these people have to lose their child benefit when they are already contributing so much in tax?

Whatever you say about taxes, this govt helped lots of people with family tax credits etc. but at the same time the well off were able to make lots of dosh. Seen it with my own eyes. Not everyone happy but all round I think most people got something. DC will get in so let's sit back and see how fair his side will be.

Doesn't Gérard Depardieu looks like Gordon?

I think the bullying of GB by the media is disgraceful. I hope he rides it out.

HW- I agree with a lot of what you say- however, I gave the example of teachers ( no doubt there will be howls from those who are on the lower pay scales!) to show that it isn't the super-rich who earn over £100K if you are looking at a joint income, it is people fairly ordinary jobs.

Of course it's not a case of "well I had the FA when it was there, and I don't care now". What I AM saying- and I am not alone in this I know- is that the amount that FA adds on over a year is not that much relative to your income if it is over £50K. It was very nice thank you, and most of it was banked/invested and is now going towards tuition fees and uni rent. We were lucky enough not to need it for day to day living- and I am not the only mum who thinks that!

I don't actually think that people should be paid for having children, irrespective of their income.

FA used to be paid when few women worked, or had independent income,and it was a means for them to have something for themselves, paid directly to them, to spend on their kids, without having to ask their husbands for more housekeeping. I think it is a very outdated benefit, which could be updated- by increasing other benefits that are already means-tested, and for which they are eligible.

I also think we forget what a dire mess the country is in with £billions debt which is going to take generations to repay, thanks to Labour's ecsessive borrowing. The reality is- we will have to decide whether the little that is in the pot goes for cancer treatments, the very disabled, education, etc- or to families who have a modest/relatively high income, as a nice but non-essential extra.

Ok, back from tea now, can't promise sparkling wit as am brain dead from too many kids but will try to crank brain into gear for this thread.

HTTM - I think I agree with you over the way that this government has handled our financial situation to lead us to the current place of being billions in debt & our credit rating downgraded. I'm also not blind to the fact that it was GB who was responsible for many of these decisions. he's not infallible. But . . .I do believe he & Labour are still our best current option.

The labour party have delivered on their main election promise of 'education' etc. and continue to both fund the NHS and encourage good practice to the point where some trusts are ending the year in credit. The alternative to this is the Conservatives. On past experience it would take an awful lot to convince me of their good intentions to the populace as a whole. I well remember the direly underfunded education system and impoverished hospitals and I don't want to go back there, though I do appreciate they're probably better at encouraging enterprise and thereby creating a strong economy. Tricky one.

Regarding FA, as a couple with 4 kids on an income of £50K, in a very expensive city I can tell you that FA is very much needed for day-to-day living in our household. Personal opinion of course and not researched or linked to any statistics, but still valid I like to think - if only to me.

I know T Blair is a Fettes/ Oxbridge educated man. I felt the same distrust for him as I feel now for DC. I'm afraid that class war isn't dead and never will be, my 'fairyland comment' was facetious and I apologise, but I do think you're a little naive if you choose not to see that it's just rumbling away like a dormant volcano. If the gap between those with choices and those without continues to widen I feel we may well be seeing more of it. The key signifier of this being the education system.

I do have prejudices, of course I do - everyone does, and no doubt what I see and experience is coloured by them, but I try hard not to allow them to influence the judgements I make. But I make an exception for a man from a background of immense privilege and wealth who wants me to allow him to make major decisions about me and mine. I don't consider myself to be arrogant or patronising for that, and am a bit offended that you should call me so, I'm thinking maybe 'pot' and 'black' ?

Need to go and lie down in a dark room now . . .

Howtotell - although our annual deficit is now pretty bad, I think we accumulated debt is still not as bad as many other western countries but I will re-confirm this. And as I have been saying for sometime, the Govt will make money off of the injections into banks. The US govt is making a nice earner from their TARP programme and we will get back more than we invested. Those who criticise Obama and Brown for govt spending at this time should know that these gentlemen have probably averted a global depression altho' we are not yet out of the woods.

Mrsruffalo- yes, the problem with GB is that unlike TB and DC he has not made friends with the press enough. Like he is no friend of Nick Robinson unlike other people. When it looked like Ken Clarke or Rifkind might win Tory leadership, the press defied the Tory party not to vote for the handsome young Turk. It was a good choice in the end as you win by looking good and sounding non-threatening. If it were about substance then Ken Clarke and Vince Cable would be top dogs and possibly PM by now.

Further, Murdoch has veto power on who runs this country which is very alarming, in my view as he doesn't even live her or does he? And Ken Clarke is a Europhile so Murdoch would NEVER allow him to win- that's why he has been so close and never clinched it. We lap up the hysteria and personality politics as fed by the media.

We also use family allowance for day to day living. We are living on one income as I stopped work to look after my pre-school children.