To hope that Gordon Brown doesn't resign?

[mrsruffallo]

I still don't think he is doing a bad job. I think he is a very caring and intelligent politician, and I hope he stays.
Am I the only one who feels like this?

Maybe GB looks odd to some because of his expressions which may have something to do with his partial sight (one eye lost in Rugby match as you know). On one level jokes about his looks are funny but on another level it says something about our insensitivity?

lucia39.. two of the main pigs in animal farm were based on stalin and trotsky.....just wondered who you saw GB as..?

1)Apprently the labour rebels think that Brown is being too harsh on them with the expenses thing and this is part of/the real reason for the timing of their strike.

2)I think it was disgraceful the way the Telegraph smeared GB about his cleaning costs when there is no suggestion of misappropriation. Is it just by chance that they ran this story on day one of the expense fiasco. And when did we hear anything about Cameron's claims?

Just got back to this, and though I only have a few minutes HTTM, just on a point of information, actually TB's kids did go State schools - I think he got into a mess as they were selective/ religious or something, but am pretty sure he didn't go down the private route.

• amongst other things you say: '...reign in the welfare state which has become an all-consuming beast, allowing too many people to receive benefits too eaily, at the expense of the hard working middle classes.' Do you really believe this. I mean really? Am not being facetious, am genuinely curious.

• Tough Daddy, yes you're right we're by no means the most in debt. In fact we're pretty low down the list.

TD there was something about Cameron's expenses. He claimed a few hundred for paying someone to tame a Clematis and paid it back - might have got the detail wrong, but it was something rather amusing along those lines. + then there was quite a lot of rumbling about the amount of his mortgage repayments claimed, which did seem rather on the large side from this outsider's pov. Not a duck island in sight though for either of them.

Smee is right. TB's children went to catholic state schools not private. His daughter went to Sacred Heart in Hammersmith and his sons to the Oratory. Both state. Quite a few children from my dd's state catholic primary school go to both of these high schools. and DC's children are very young aren't they. Aren't the two youngest preschool or at the very least reception/ year one age so to say they go to state schools is somewhat premature.

that's right molly..i'm hoping ds2 gets into the oratory...very good school.

Smee- you are very incisive. The point I was making is that the Telegraph posted the smear story about GB's brother organising cleaner on day 1 of the expense affair doing him damage. Then they ran a labour only thing for quite a few days. Guess which party has been damaged more by the whole series? The Cameron thing was reported when the public was already wary and fed up with the whole thing.

mrsruffallo - surely you can see that GB is a bully who surrounds himself by bullies? Did you hear the way he responded to Evan Davis's question about Damian McBride? "He resigned, I sacked him, that's over now". He cannot accept anyone challenging him. Of course the tales of him throwing staplers at people etc are legion - and not just made up by the media I think to judge by the way he responded - with a face of thunder - to the question on this topic posed by a Conservative MP at PMQ.

I agree that there have been many good policies introduced under Labour. I just think that GB's contribution has been overstated. Remember who scrapped the 10p tax band for a cheap headline? As someone else said he was also responsible for making the tax credit so complicated it deters many people from claiming it. Remember how in every election he would only include about half of what he was going to introduce? All the nasty surprises came in supplementary papers. GB does not and never has appealed to that section of the electorate needed to ensure a Labour victory in the way that Tony Blair did or Alan Johnson could.

for election read budget.

Extremely- ALan Johnson has many qualities but the press will shred him if he becomes leader. The press wants change. DC is next up and that is what will happen.

GB may have made error on 10p tax band but he has done a lot on child poverty, tax credits etc. That was his thing. Also actions on third world debt. GB does believe in fairness and has consistently acted on it as Chancellor.

My US friend tells me that Obama has learnt much from GB. SOme think that he has genuinely led on saving the world from deep depression. People are more likely to vote on his odd facial expression though.

ToughDaddy - how will the press shred AJ?

I am a big admirer of AJ. I believe he and his sister lost their parents quite young and had to persuade social services to let them bring up themselves because they were so young. He has risen from being a post man and has a common touch. However, he will be cast as a man out of his debt and not capable of handling a global crisis. He will be caricatured as a John Major type before long. I just think that Cameron is nearly unstoppable. The "political pendulum" has swung is the expression which means that the press and public are cynical about incumbents and just fancy a change regardless.

He'll be fine as long as GB can be persuaded to be Chancellor...

extremely- I think GB will be given a one way ticket to somewhere very far when his time is up . I quite like Yvette Cooper (in the political sense, I hasten to add . She is very smart but I can't understand why her hubbie thinks so much of his self. When we move Gordon on lets go for someone smart AND emotionally intelligent like Yvette Cooper. I am not convinced by Milliband. The young labour women remind me of my daughter vs my son. My daughetr is really good at being modest about her multiple talents. My son is good at stuff but is also good at being confident about stuff that he is average at.

Teresa May and Harriet Harman might have gone a longer way if they were blokes, in my opinion.

TD whilst I think Yvette C is an evidently strong woman, I have seen her have sadly fluffy moments. Not surprising as she's still quite new and it must be one hell of a pressure male or female (am not thinking gender here). Personally I think she needs a few years and a few more Cabinet posts before she can stand up and be 'the one'. Too soon and she'd fail.

• yes, I think you're right about GB and the Telegraph, but I think they've been having a lot of fun dribbling it out - they knew they had diddly squat on GB, so stuck him out up front, then kept a few bombs for later, both Tory and Labour combined.
• fwiw I think Harriet Harman may well surprise us and step up. She's sound and sensible, though am sadly not sure she's dynamic enough to be leader. There's something sadly flat about her. I think AJ has a chance but he will have a lot to prove, lovely and rooted doesn't always amount to enough. He seems to be wise enough to be bidding his time htough, so who knows. I reckon in time, we'll have much more of both Millibands + Ed might surprise us. I'd put my money and faith in Hilary Benn though. Long time hence, he might well be the man for the future.

Smee - nice summary. Hillary Benn is an interesting one. I think he would be steady caretaker but wouldn't excite or be dynamic. But atleast Labour's core would turn up for him.

I think Ed Balls would upset many insiders.

I think Labour will lose atleast the next two elections so I would actually go for Jack Straw initially for his experience and credibility- just to consolidate Labour and stop melt down. Then later own the young guns can make their move. What happened to William Hague should serve as a warning to the young guns re:timing.

Iv been amusing my self during pregnancy insomnia last night with messing around with Gordon brown pic off the guardian website, Im due 27th.
I feel I should be scrubbing the floor instead of making rude giffs of Gordon Brown.
Apologies for barging into thread. May be NWS.
See: www.bluelou.net/Gordangiffs.html

My sil has worked with Yvette Cooper and she found her to be just as bullying as her husband so at least they are well matched. AJ all the way.

Harriet Harperson lost the plot years ago; she's neither sound nor sensible. Ed Balls has been blocked thankfully for the moment.

I hope GB stays - it makes it easier for the Conservatives to win.

smee- TB kids did go the London Oratory school- but if you remember there was ahuge stink about it because they weren't in the catchment area for it- and also if you look at the selection procedures, they are in all but name, like an independent school.

And yes, I do believe everything I said about the welfare state- not going to try to convince you at all as you are obviously a die-hard socialist. If you look at the headlines today, socialism has been rejected by huge swathes of Europe.

anyway, it's all academic, as I think GB will be gone within the month and there will be a leadership election any day and an election in the autumn- mark my words.

""I do have prejudices, of course I do - everyone does, and no doubt what I see and experience is coloured by them, but I try hard not to allow them to influence the judgements I make. But I make an exception for a man from a background of immense privilege and wealth who wants me to allow him to make major decisions about me and mine. I don't consider myself to be arrogant or patronising for that, and am a bit offended that you should call me so, I'm thinking maybe 'pot' and 'black' ?""

I wish that the class system and prejudices associated with it could disappear- why- tell me in a purely logical, factual way- should someone's parental/own wealth make them indifferent to the needs of people with less money or a different background? It credits them with no intelligence, so empathy, no ability to see outside their own little world- surely you do not really believe that?

I was brought up by a working class family in a area of relative deprivation- my career allowed me to meet and work with a huge range of people including the aristocracy and the under privileged. I have worked with people far richer than DC and can tell you that they are not self-serving in the way that you seem to think.

By background, I should be a staunch Labour voter- I should have the same views as you- that anyone with money is not to be trusted to make decisions affecting me. However, I make my mind up on other matters apart from what someone's parents were able to give them.

YANBU the whole banking thing can be traced right back to the feet of the Thatcher era. I'm not happy that the Labour party fell for thinking that deregulation and de-nationalisation were the way to go.

And yes, as far as I'm concerned come the revolution Thatcher is still first up against the wall, figuratively speaking, I am after all a bleeding heart liberal

dxx