To hope that Gordon Brown doesn't resign?

[mrsruffallo]

I still don't think he is doing a bad job. I think he is a very caring and intelligent politician, and I hope he stays.
Am I the only one who feels like this?

Well lets face it we all know that when someone is elected as Prime Minister we all just love them and isn't it wonderful what a lovely family man/woman they are etc etc etc. Couple of years later, god what an arsehold, couldn't run a pub let along a country, get him out get him out... etc etc.

Why an earth anyone would want to put themselves up for that job beats me. I simply cannot remember when a Prime Minister left the job and was actually liked!

This is the problem with the population of the UK, far too fickle.

How an earth can you blame Gordon Brown for everything that goes wrong. He has been blamed for the expenses row. What's he supposed to do then, call in at the expenses office now and again and have a look at what ministers are claiming. Think he might be a tad too busy, yet he gets the blame.

Here Here Walking.

But the expenses row was GB's fault!

MPs were due for a payrise at the same time as NHS were due a review. Gordy put a cap on NHS wages; Parliament couldn't vote themselves a rise at the same time as asking others for restraint. So the noble MPs didn't have much of a payrise but got their money anyway through the backdoor route of expenses.
So it was usual Labour smoke-and-mirrors / spin / say-one-thing-do-another which came back to bite them about 7 years later.

Still can't see how that was GB's actual fault. There are others in Government who make decisions. GB does not make every decision with the Government it is simply not possible. You will be blaming him next for the loo's running out of toilet paper at the house of commons. Ministers are paid to do a job, they do not go knocking on GB's door every time a decision has to be made. GB would simply not have enough hours in the day to be doing this. The ministers who claimed these illegal expenses are at fault. I also think the expenses department should be held to question over them. How could they possibly have agreed to some of these expenses being paid.

Wasn't there an issue with Alastair darlings expenses..it seems to have been conveniently forgotten in the leadership hoo ha.

It seems as though some people are being punished more than others in the dodgy expenses thing. There should be one set of rules for all MPs.

It was GB as Chancellor who put the cap on NHS pay, he was responsible for that because he was Chancellor. He was in charge of financial policy and its implementation.

You will note that many of the MPs expenses were not illegal. Have you not heard them bleating 'I didn't realise that I was doing wrong, it was within the rules'.

They should have taken the recommendation of the Senior Pay Review Panel (an independent body) instead of trying to hide the payrise as expenses and fudge the issue.

DArling's expenses are too bad. The main complaint about him is 'flipping' his houses to claim extras and not pay Capital Gains Tax.

Haven't read the whole thead - neither his own party or the public have any faith in GB and so, for that reason, he should stand down.

But I don't think he will. Who would put themselves up for the leadership? Nobody with any real political ambition. Labour cannot win the next election, therefore any interim leader would be a fall guy.

If I were in the labour party I would be thinking: let's get the election out of the way, take the beating and regroup and come back in five years.

That was just an exvuse I didn't realise. My DH has to put expenses in every month, but he knows the flipping difference between what is right and what is wrong. We don't, funnily enough, expect his employer to pay our mortgage!! We didn't expect him to pay for our conservatory!!

that should be excuse

If they are seriously dumb enough to think it is perfectly acceptable to be claiming some of the ludicrous things on expenses that they have been, then they should not be in these responsible positions. Which only leaves one theory, they are not dumb, because they got the jobs in first place, which means they are just plain crooks all of them. It is absolutely disgusting and I can hardly bear to listen to any of it anymore. Especially when so many of us are on budgets etc.

fembear, I was replying to Edam who was saying GB did it to deliberately stick two fingers up at the working class. Was merely pointing out it wasn't deliberate, simply inept - not that that makes it right

• the Expenses claims didn't just start during GB's time as PM - you can't really believe that can you. It's been going on for decades. Sad but true..

Another Minister quits, this time over Brown's "rule by smear" - see here

smee - agree with you it was ineptitude rather than class war but he really, really, really should have noticed what he was doing. Think the message people took from it, whatever GB's intention, was 'we don't give a stuff about the working classes'.

The Afternoon Play on Radio 4 this afternoon struck me as rather "interesting", it dealt with Alf Broughton. Listening to it I was struck by similarities to the situation today.

Callaghan, like Brown, was a "caretaker" PM who was advised to go to the country a year earlier [in the summer of 1978] but didn't. 1978/79 saw a series of economic disasters [including the Winter of Discontent]. A vote of No Confidence brought by Thatcher in April 1979 resulted in a general election in May that saw a comparatively small Tory majority [44 seats] and a Tory Government for the next 18 years!

spokette- it's "hear hear" .

Meaning you hear it and agree!

happywomble- if you want to pick on Darling's expenses then you must also pick on Caroline Spelman (spelling of name?) and other in shadow cabinet.

Walking- yes, we decide if we like the look of the PM and then we blame him for everything if we don't like him. How many times the first thing that people say about GB is that they don't like the look of him. I DO like DC but I don't think that his party will look after the long term interest of socitey. ALTHO' I DO think that DC does recognise that his party needs to broaden his appeal (e.g. make his party less sexist and less racist for example). He is a good guy in my opinion but I think the Labour party is more representative of the needs of our society.

Until the banking crisis Osbourne et al were cosying up to hedge funds and the city. Nothing against hedge funds but the Tory party's starting point has always been the perspective of City folk. It is possible for them to change, I know, but they have to tell us what they are planning, not just appear on webCameron with georgeous smiles and a lovely wife and say, I am nice and decent and just like you, so "trust me". Will somebody tell me what good do we think the Tories will do? I would genuinely like to learn as I would like to evaluate before I vote next time.

CONFESSION: By the way, I think the press will not rest until GB is gone. I am not ashamed to say that I have actually sold the pound versus the euro in order to profit when this happens. yes I am a profit driven being on a day to day basis But I try to take a wider view when I vote.

Lucia39- yes very similar. And Callaghan was very unlucky as he was a good man cast aside by events. Brown?

I think i must be breaking rule by duplicating my post from another thread:

1. I think much of the commentary that we are fed by press is vindicative and missing the point. I don't think that we can continue to measure the economy and progress on the narrow measure of GDP. We should not crucify govts when GDP goes negative for a couple of quarters? I make a living from the crumbs of capitalism on a daily basis but surely a prosperity model that is measured by and based on endless growth in consumption is not sustainable until/unless technology catches up. We need govt spending on bold initiatives in the direction mentioned. So just getting nice Mr Cameron in is not the answer unless he can tell us what he is planning beside public sector and tax cuts.

2)I wonder why it is not convenient for the media to report that the Brown/Darling initiative to take preference stakes (in various guises) in the banks is well on track to make the tax payer a nice earner. The US banks want the US govt to cash in their stakes but the US govt is making a nice little earner and Obama and Geithner are too smart to let the banks off the hook without extracting some more juice and conditions for the tax payer. Have been saying on MN for some time that we (tax payer) will make a handsome profit from the bank deals in the UK. It is the shareholders who are losing out (pension funds etc.). Give Brown/Darling credit for doing this and for showing the way to complacent Western govts.

I can go on....

The media is not interested in factual reasoned reporting but just creating storms to compete on a tabloid basis.

Hear Hear ToughDaddy

I said to my DH last night that history will vindicate GB's handling of this recession. With any luck, things will start turning around before an election and the electorate will have to decide who they trust with the economy because ultimately, that is what wins elections.

DC has yet to reveal economic policies because he does not have any other than cut public spending and lower taxes for the well off.

Tough Daddy - what are you saying about Alastair Darlings expenses..were they correct or not?

You seem in a rush to defend them by referring to the tories (caroline spelman). Is tough daddy Peter M?!!!

If Caroline Spelman has dodgy expenses they need to be examined too.

It would appear that Alastair Darling should not have stayed in his job due to issues with his expenses but Gordon Brown was unable to sack him..I find this quite worrying. I'm not saying I wish Ed B were chancellor as he doesn't come accross well but I don't see how Alastair D should remain if he hasn't sorted his expenses properly. He is the chancellor and he of all people should be able to fill in his expenses correctly.

It seems as though Alastair d is still chancellor as he is the only person on the labour side capable of doing the job, and they have had to ignore his expense issues.

Maybe AD should be sanctioned. However, AD has done a great job for this country on the big things that matters. Everyone laughed at him when he told us that that we were about to face the worst crisis ever. He knows the Treasury inside out and is a very safe pair of hands. He and GB did a superb job by using preference stakes to buy out and rescue the banks. The Americans effectively copied. Maybe he should have been sacked, who knows. But if I were his boss (I can dream) I am not sure what I would have done.

I think David Cameron faced the same issue with Julie Kirkbride and didn't sack her. I agrgued that she is very effective and should not be judged too quickly, kangaroo court style. David Cameron didn't sack Ms Spelman when she had her nannygate a few months back. Probably because she shows some promise - what I see of her suggests that she will be a good cabinent minister. I ahave been very consistent in my argument about not, hastily sacking MPs for allowable expenses. Hazel Blears probably, AD maybe not?

so it doesn't matter if they have dodgy expenses if they are doing their job well?

I have not said Alastair Darling is doing a bad job.

I just think the treatment over MPs expenses is inconsistent.

happywomble - I am a (very) poor man?s Mandy, I am afraid. For fun, I do (informally) advise opposition party in very small country on strategy. But they have been out of govt for a while ; probably because they don?t listen to me enough

My FX trade (above) is losing me money but atleast things are looking a little better for GB. I fear that he is wounded though and that it would be one hell of a recovery to save him after the savage attack from the self indulgent Blears et al. I can't see Labour winning next year. Most the could hope for is respectability.

Perhaps they could think up a cunning strategy like GB putting things back in order and Jack Straw to taking over later this year. The more I think of it, the more he seems to me as the right person to be next up. He is very able, a unifying figure, a nice man, lots of experience, a good debater, has the all important southern appeal to keep the biassed media happy. But realistically, Cameron and co. just have to continue to keep their heads down and allow the Labour party to rip themselves apart.

happywomble - agree; MP expenses has been an issue inconsistently dealt with on all sides. I am not sure if AD decision was correct- you highlight a difficult point. But it is not easy. I am glad for us to return to the bigger issues of govt, though as I think the expense issue was important but badly handled by all including the media.