to think it is a bit bad to trick a dp/h into having another child

[timmette]

Read a post on this lovely website and it has prompted me to ask - aibu to think it is wrong to con ( can't think of a better word)a dh into having another child when he has stated he doesn't want too? I just think it is morally wrong - I know it is none of my business but I am a bit
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good post stayfrosty. I also have issues with women that say things like 'oh well DH can never make an actual decision, just prefers it to happen' etc. Or refuse to take the pill or have coil or whatever, because they want a baby and leave it up to their partners to use condoms, with no reminding or anything. I know for sure (and i expect that my DH is not the only man) that after a while it would slip up...i don't see this much further from sperm stealing either.

Well said Frosty.

I disagree scorpio if you don't want a baby and know your partner isn't taking any contraception then slipping up just isn't an option is it, they must remember the same as women must remember their pill or deal with the consequences. It works both ways just because they are a man doesn't make them any less responsible.

i disagree Sorrento. I almost think its relying on their slip up.

Just my opinion; i have always been a stickler for contraception usage though, i know others aren't as black and white as me.

Er, Snorbs, that's not what I said.

Re my friend, he said he did want children but not right away. That's very different to going into a relationship with someone who has stated they don't want children. Utterly different. She went into the marriage on the understanding that they would have children in the future. Now the future is here and he shows no signs of coming round. She is considering IVF with a donor. I think he has been dishonest and reneged on the deal.

Scorpio, I'm glad you have a good, strong marriage (I do too, by the way!), that is a wonderful thing. I'm sure you deserve it too, and were clever enough to choose a man who shared your desire for children. Not everyone's life is as straightforward in this area.

There is another issue in that men sometimes don't understand that wanting a baby and having one are sometimes worlds apart. When I finally got my DP on board, we found out he had rubbish sperm and we had to go through fertility treatment to get pregnant. Finding out you're facing these sort of problems when you're already 41 is not ideal I can tell you.

By the way, I'm not talking about the oops I forgot my pill method. Nor about men who have said they don't want kids ever. I refused to use any contraception on the grounds that I had absolutely no interest in trying to avoid pregnancy. He had the option of using condoms. He didn't.

Does my friend's H have a 'right' to decide not to want to be a parent? He didn't mention this right when they married. Now that's a betrayal.

There are many women who have no children or far fewer children than they want. I think that's a topic for discussion, shoot me if you wish.

"Does my friend's H have a 'right' to decide not to want to be a parent?"

Yes, he does. He may well be a git for not saying so right at the start or he may have changed his mind (people do) as the years have gone by. It still does not make it right to force parenthood on him against his wishes.

peachyfox - so sorry for your troubles . It hasn't always been easy for us deciding to have children, dc3 was a huge stand off point for us. I hope i haven't come across smugly or anything, or upset you.

Everybody has the right to decide whether they want to be a parent or not.

stayfrosty I was prepared to walk away from my relationship too. I put it right on the line. He then decided we could have a baby together. OK, I'd played a little bit dirty before but only because we weren't using any contraception, and he'd stated we would have the baby if there was an accident. I don't agree with Scorp that this is spermnapping, jesus, men can understand biology too.

My friend is now 40, she is prepared to leave him over this but will she get over him, find a new, more family-orientated man, build a relationship, allow it to reach a stage when babies are a possibility, ttc and succeed?

Having read only the OP.

Yes it is.
YANBU.

But men should also take responsibility.
I understand that women are the ones likely to be taking precautions in a long term relationship though so as long as he knows/thinks she is taking the pill ect, it is her that would be wrong to come off it without discussion and agreement.

Lastly. IMO if you desperately want another child so badly and he doesn't, consider ending the relationship and going out with someone who DOES want more kids. Its the only way.

Scorpio you haven't upset me at all don't worry! I knew when I posted this I would get flamed but I think it's worth talking about.

Our IVF worked first time, and I'm 24 weeks tomorrow. We had to use a donor to conceive and still my recalcitrant DP is as excited as any man could be.

Actually not much could upset me these days. Apart from the thought it might not have happened for me. And the thought it probably won't again.

By the way, not sure about the some men some women don't want babies. I do believe in ovarian imperative.

i always wonder what happens when a woman doesn't want kids and the man does...... What would be said, for example, if a MAN forced a woman to have a child, ie, by taking control of contraception barrier methods or rhythym method, then 'failed' to use or interfered with the C so it didn't work?

Peachy, it's very sad for your friend that her husband has changed his mind (apologies if I misunderstood your first post; it was a bit ambiguous).

Nevertheless, I think you get onto very shaky moral ground to suggest that a woman's desire to have children should trump a man's desire not to, for whatever reason that situation has arisen.

The donor was a sperm donor by the way. Just because I'm very proud of my eggs!

I think that going into a marriage saying you will have children and then saying you don't is a betrayal?

I think everyone has the right to know where they stand on big issues like that.

I don't think it's in any reasonable for a man to say, sorry honey I vetoed the kids and expect her to reply, ok darling I respect your opinion you are within your rights and I will swiftly depart, taking my pesky eggs with me, with no bad feelings.

What good is a relationship with someone who doesn't want to fulfil your deepest, strongest desire?

I wish I'd been born in the pre-pill era frankly. Not having ever shagged around, I missed out on the pros and got hit with the cons. And I'd be a grandma by now.

Peachy, you seem to continually be presenting this as a "woman wants kids, man doesn't" thing and then castigating any man who has the temerity to change his mind. Yes, it's sad. Yes, it will cause bad feelings and resentments.

But are you genuinely trying to say that you believe a man has no right to decide whether he wants to have children or not? Or is it that, once he's suggested he may want children at some point, he then has no right to change his mind some years down the line?

Do you similarly feel that a woman has no right to decide that she doesn't want children with her husband if, at some point in the past, she's suggested she might? Or, in your world, is it only men who have no rights to decide about procreation while a woman has every right to decide whatever she wants?

I know two couples where the woman is the one who doesn't want children but the man does. It isn't just a female thing. With one couple they now have a ds as the woman realised her dh's wanting a child was stronger than her not wanting one and with the other couple the woman is having none of it and they are still childless.

Well if, as one or other of you I can't remember which suggested, he tied her up to get the job done, then I would certainly involve the police. But on more imaginable circumstances, like faking contraception, I think it would be wrong of a man to force a pregnancy on a woman. As all of us know on here, babies deserve to be born into security.

I have only ever voiced my sympathy for women who have partners and husbands who keep putting off having children, particularly a first child, but do not say they don't want children full stop. I feel their despair because I've been there, and if they think their H or P will be happy ultimately with the child, and importantly if they are prepared to go it alone if need be, then I understand if they plant all the responsibility for contraception at the feet of the man and wait and see and/or kick up a hell of a fuss to get their way. I'm saying, why should they take it lying down?

Also, for men - not such a smart move as he would have a hard time getting the baby he wanted so much if she left him wouldn't he? Not a court in the land would give it to him without her say so or very good reason. A man might think, I will leave this woman because she doesn't want a family and I do

My posts are not intended to be about tricking, I wanted to talk about just how much power men have acquired in the fertility game. They never had it before - that's where my interest lies.

sorry penultimate should finish, and go off at a later date and have a family. Women don't have this option. Hence the ovarian imperative.

For crying out loud, Peachy, post-conception the woman holds all the power. She, and she alone, can decide whether to have an abortion or not. And you acknowledge that a court wouldn't hand a baby to its father unless the mother has proven herself spectacularly unfit or she agrees.

Yet here you are, bemoaning the fact that, prior to conception, a man has an equal right to decide on procreation as a woman. You see it as wrong that a man should attempt to force a woman into pregnancy, but see it as ok for two of your friends to have done that to the men in their lives because "...they knew it would be ok".

Do you not genuinely see the desperate inequality in your stated position? Or is it that you think men can't be trusted to know their own minds and so the women in their lives have the right to take over and make these staggeringly huge decisions for them?

I take it back. This isn't chauvinism you're displaying, it's misandry.

I'll reply later as I have to go out now. In the meantime, can I just clarify that I wasn't suggesting we go back to the middle ages, or that controlling our fertility doesn't have its advantages, but rather that it has its disadvantages as well. Not a particularly new idea.