To want DS to go to nursery full time...?

[LadyOfWaffle]

He went from 3 mornings to 5 mornings over the last half term and is starting a new nursery on Monday that's 5 afternoons, but they have started a lunctime club so you can join a morning and an afternoon together. I am a SAHM but DS seems to need so much more than I can give him (he loves school so so much) and TBH I could do with the longer break to look after DS2 (who seems to take second place abit?) and start some college work. He has just turned 3, which makes me feel like I am coping out abit IYSWIM... I just feel guilty for even dreaming thinking about it.

The children with the most behavioural problems in my childrens school are from a mixture of backgrounds. I suspect it is easy for teaches to draw the conclusion that a child has behavioural problems because he has attended FT nursery of the teacher has attitudes like you on FT childcare......

I don't think I said FT nursery if you read what I wrote I said "long hours in day care" the two children in particular were attending 7.30am to 8pm 5 days a week (different nurseries)and both cases have been thoroughly investigated by many professionals who conclude this is a significant factor in their behaviour difficulties.
I don't have a problem with FT childcare as a parent I used a Day Nursery for my daughter because like many working mothers I relied on this resource. My son attended PT pre school and then PT nursery school however. Once they started school I did change the arrangements to a Childminder as I believed this was better for my children. I would never dream of imposing my preferences on others.

The government has promised extended free nursery hours for all 3 year olds and my school is one of the pilot schools providing this already. The teaching unions have said this week that this may cause problems in the future unless the government backs it up with increased funding.

Traditionally Scandinavian countries have higher budgets for Early Education compared to the UK and this is recognised as a significant factor in the differences in "nursery education"

OEDC found that cultural differences between Scandinavian and UK traditions in Early education were a significant factor in comparisons between achievement.

Another factor indicated in research is the relatively low status of those working in child care in the UK compared to Scandinavia where teachers and carers train together to a high standard (not a 2 tier system as in the UK)

There are many other comparisons but these seem to be the consistent themes in a number of research papers.

Lady G this is supported by the EPPE and REPEY sudies.

So mrz, what do you mean by long hours in daycare, exactly, if you don't mean FT? Is the government intending to extend free nursery in school, as you say, from 7:30am to 8pm? Which age group?

As I said in my post blueshoes the children in my class with extreme behaviour had attended nursery for 12+ hours from a very young age ... I consider FT to be 9-3 (but this is because I'm looking at it from a school perspective and I accept others may not share this view).

The government don't (as far as I know ) plan to offer full time nursery education to any age group. The extended free hours are 15 hours per week for 3 year olds and in some areas 121/2 hours for 2 year olds

[http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6011934 TES article]

"The extension of three and four-year-olds' entitlement to free early years education from 12.5 to 15 hours a week, which is to be introduced this year, will spread qualified teachers too thinly and undermine the quality of care given to pupils, the union said."

mrz: "Lady G this is supported by the EPPE and REPEY sudies."

Apart from decoding those acronyms, could you explain what in LadyG linked to supports what you have written? In the face of the all the flak that nursery care has come in for on this thread, I actually found LadyG's posts neutral and in some cases (eg on cognitive ability) actually supportive.

Funny thing how people read what they want to hear and see what they want to believe, isn't it?

mrz, I have difficulty following your argument.

You say the children with severe behavioural difficulties attended 'long hours daycare' of 12+ hours a day.

But you are not concerned with ft childcare which is in your terms 6 hours a day.

Yet you are concerned with the government extending free nursery from 12.5 hours to 15 hours a week, which really only adds up to a mere 3 hours a day?

The Effective Provision of Pre-school Education (EPPE) project investigated the effects of pre-school education and care on childrens development for children aged 3-7 years old.

Key findings

-Settings that have staff with higher qualifications have higher quality scores and their children
make more progress.
-Quality indicators include warm interactive relationships with children, having a trained teacher
as manager and a good proportion of trained teachers on the staff.
-Where settings view educational and social development as complementary and equal in
importance, children make better all round progress.
-Effective pedagogy includes interaction traditionally associated with the term ?teaching?, the
provision of instructive learning environments and ?sustained shared thinking? to extend children?s
learning.
? The importance of home learning
-For all children, the quality of the home learning environment is more important for intellectual
and social development than parental occupation, education or income. What parents do is
more important than who parents are.

REPEY (Researching Effective Pedagogy in the Early Years)

"We have found that qualified staff in the most effective settings provide children with more
experience of academic activities (especially literacy and mathematics) and they encourage
children to engage in activities with higher cognitive challenge. While we found that the most highly
qualified staff also provided the most direct teaching, we found that they were the most effective in
their interactions with the children, using the most sustained shared thinking interactions. Further,
we found that less qualified staff are significantly better pedagogues when they are supervised by
qualified teachers."

Both are extensive documents so the quotes are taken from key findings ... which support what Lady G posted ..."Higher quality child care continued to be linked with higher scores on standardized tests of math and reading achievement and of memory through third grade."

blueshoes my posts in no way reflect my personal views on childcare what I have tried to do is present information that is available on various points raised by other posters.
I did however fell that Katiestar was unfairly criticised for her contribution which reflects what she has experienced and is somewhat reflected by my own experience. I am fully aware that two children with behaviour problems in no way proves that all children who attend day care will have similar problems.

As a working mother I am fully aware of the pressures on parents and as the mother of a child with ASD/ADHD I am also in full sympathy with parents who feel they need "space" from their child but as a professional I am also aware of some of the issues relating to the expectations placed on mothers.

I only have experience of the private nursery sector for which I pay a fortune, but get very high quality for my children in return. The Swedish budget is indeed bigger to offer quality childcare for all, and I think the UK should adopt a similar model.

It is not true that Scandinavian nursery workers train with teachers, nor have they especially high status or are especially well paid. There are unqualified assistants working in Scandinavian nurseries too and in Norway for example they use young men (18-19 years old) who have opted out of army service and work with children instead. Its seen as a resource.

I am still missing what you think my children are not getting in their British nursery which my sister and brothers children are getting in Norway and Sweden and which can cause these behavioural problems you are talking about. You seem to be very sure of something when digging a bit deeper you know very little about. Would love you to answer my question a bit more specific than "differences in cultural traditions". WHAT DIFFERENCES?

LOL at your posts are not reflecting your personal view on childcare and is just information. You say you have written an MA, so you must be aware of the pitfalls of research and how to interpret it. Variables you must account for for example. For example, what different variables could it be in a childs life who would mean one child who went to FT nursery developed behavioural difficulties and another child did not? And what about children of SAHMS who develop behavioural difficulties? If you have seen 10 children of SAHMS with issues, does this mean you can conclude it must be bad to grow up with a SAHM?

"I don't think I said FT nursery if you read what I wrote I said "long hours in day care" the two children in particular were attending 7.30am to 8pm 5 days a week"

I am not sure this is relevant to the thread at all. I know very few people who would think 7:30-8 pm in nursery would be a great idea.

Having re read what I have posted there doesn't seem to be anywhere I have claimed the nursery care your child is receiving is worse than the care your brother and sister's children are receiving if there is perhaps you could direct me to it?

I simply posted a link for those interested to a programme produced for teachers to show the Swedish early years system. You seem to be offended by this?

The system in Scandinavia is different to England would you agree? or if you disagree perhaps you could enlighten me as everything I have witnessed seems to suggest this is so.

If you are happy with your choice why do you feel the need to be so aggressive?

Mrz, so if the care is not worse then it does not explain why British children should negatively be affected by FT nursery when other European children are not? This was the question I asked posters who claimed FT childcare is detrimental to children.

The system in Scandinavia is different in that FT childcare is available to all and the norm.I have asked you what other differences there are.You mention cultural. I think you are strongly implying in your posts that it is the quality of care which is better in Scandinavian nurseries. Now you are saying you are not, so I must be mis-reading your posts.

If I am happy with my choice why do I feel the need to be so aggressive? This has little to do with my choice as my children have never attended nursery FT and at the moment my DH is a SAHD.

So if I may just ask, what point is it you are trying to make exactly?

As I have stated I am not trying to make a point only to throw in some available information that people may or may not find interesting... you clearly do not.

Some differences

Swedish early years settings are generally lead by a qualified teacher in England this is rare in the PVI sector.

In Sweden it is much more common to find mixed age "family" groupings than in England. Stages rather than ages for groupings.

Compulsory school age in Sweden is 7 so children up to this age attend "nursery"

In Sweden all municipal authorities had to provide day nurseries or pre-school centres
(daghem) for children aged 12 months to five or six years.

Sweden places a strong emphasis on Social development in young children before academic.

Early formal assessment is frowned upon.

Provision for children with SEN to promote universal inclusion.

A recent ODEC report highlighted that Sweden placed a greater emphasis on developing highly skilled practitioners than on paperwork.

Mrz, so if the care is not worse then it does not explain why British children should negatively be affected by FT nursery when other European children are not?

Fairymum I have made no comments about FT nursery I merely pointed out studies on children who spend long hours (I'm afraid I cannot recall now what the study identified as long hours, neither do I know what you classify as FT) in chid care from an early age have identified behavioural problems. I have also recounted my experience of two children (who in my opinion had spent long hours in child care from an early age) displaying extreme behaviour which was investigated over a 4 year period by a number of experts (both medical and educational) who saw this as a significant factor in their behaviour.

mrz: "I have to support Katiestar's view to an extent. The children we encounter with severe behavioural problems (only 2 children with what I would judge extreme behaviour without any underlying SEN in the last 4 years) have professional parents (so not deprived in the traditional sense) but have spent long hours in day care from a very young age other children with similar background display behavioural problems but not so extreme. This opinion is echoed by many teachers across the country."

This is your view.

The 2 children you describe with severe behavioural problems attended nursery for more than 12 hours a day, well beyond FT or even normal. Could I hazard that perhaps the parenting they received or home environment was also in question, that such extreme hours of childcare would be used.

What exactly did you mean by "other children with similar background display behavioural problems but not so extreme." I suppose that would include my dcs who spent 10 hours a day in ft childcare. What behavioural problems should I expect to see in them and their ft contemporaries? Is that statement backed up by studies or just your opinion?

blueshoes I am sorry you take my experience as a personal challenge ...

mrz, this study about long hours childcare being detrimental. I would be very interested in what is meant by 'long hours' and also, the quality of the childcare provided in that environment.

I would not be in the least surprised that if the quality of childcare is lacking, that long hours in that environment is very very bad for a child. Isn't that what you are implying about the UK system as compared with the Swedish model (of which I know very little). Imagine the situation where a child spent long hours at home with very poor parenting, that child is not going to do very well at all.

Hardly rocket science.

I would be the first to admit that there are good nurseries and bad ones in UK, as I am sure the situation exists in Scandanavia - that is why parents do investigate nurseries first.

But please do not imply that parents who do use high quality nurseries can expect their children can expect behavioural problems simply because it is 'long hours' - the definition of which you are terribly vague.

mrz, you have clearly researched this area. But don't seem to hold any discernable opinion. Slightly disturbing, I feel. Where are you going with all this?

mrz: "blueshoes I am sorry you take my experience as a personal challenge ..."

I am sorry you see my asking you to substantiate your views (as I quoted below) as a personal challenge.

Still waiting for a response.

The term "long hours" is not mine but taken from the study and I agree it is vague but would you agree that the two children I mention experienced "long hours"?

I agree there are some excellent nurseries and some very poor nurseries and as to Scandinavian early years settings I'm sure my experience was of "hand picked" provision. You wouldn't show visitors the worst you have on offer would you?

I am sure you did investigate your child/children's nursery but not all parents are so particular or even know what they should be looking for I'm afraid. I'm sure you have read the threads on Mumsnet saying as much.

and I do agree that some parents appear to lack basic parenting skills which present a whole different set of problems in their children. My school has a Sure Start Children's Centre which is to target such children but it has in fact attracted "middle class" working parents instead of their intended target. (There are government studies indicating this is a common problem )

I'm not sure what the solution is unless like Sweden quality childcare becomes more freely available

blueshoes I am trying to remain neutral but it seems I am failing miserably!

Right I have found the latest study

"Spending more than 40 hours a week in childcare can worsen behaviour in young children, according to a new report.

The latest report from the Growing Up In Scotland longitudinal research, which is following the lives of 5,000 babies and 3,000 toddlers throughout childhood, found that placing children aged 34 months in childcare for long periods had negative effects on their behaviour. The effect was most significant in girls and in children whose mothers were aged under 25 when their child was born."

This is referring to an earlier study

"The bad behaviour of children who have spent long hours in nursery care rubs off on their classmates when they start school, say researchers.

Gordon Brown's childcare research chief has already warned that toddlers who spend long hours in nurseries or with childminders suffer "disconcerting" effects.

Professor Jay Belsky said these include difficult relationships with their mothers and aggressive and disobedient behaviour when they start school."

and an earlier study

"The research published by the DfES found that children spending more than 35 hours per week in a nursery were more likely to be "anti-social, worried and upset"."
"The research - led by academics at Oxford University and other leading research centres - came as teachers warned that young babies risked being ?institutionalised? by the state because more mothers were being encouraged to return to work."

so it seems the experts can't agree on what is meant by long hours either but it seems they mean between 35 and 40 hours

mrz, I don't doubt there are studies about the risks of 35-40 hours per week attendance of nursery. They are often quoted on mn and in the national press.

However, I don't see any ill effects in my children and their contemporaries having attending ft nursery, children of professional, often both working parents, no less. Why, because I am satisfied that the care my dcs get there is excellent, stimulating and nurturing. And then they go home to us as their parents, where they tell us about their day and get more loving care and attention. I am confident that what my dcs experience is what their friends at nursery experience, seeing them interact with their parents at pick up and birthday parties.

It is not 40 hours in a workhouse. It is 40 hours in a fun and stimulating environment with lots going on and friends. For many children, it works very well. Not a hint of behavioural problems at reception, severe or not.

Hard to believe? Like I say, at my dd's school, the teacher will be hardpressed to say which student attended 40+ hours nursery or not. All I know that the teacher says my dd plays with everyone and is so helpful and enthusiastic in class, she beamed when she told me.

It is because dd attended ft nursery? Of course not. It is because dd is a happy child who grew up in an environment which enriched and nurtured her. It just happened to include 40 hours in a nursery as well.

It is because dd attended ft nursery? Of course not. It is because dd is a happy child who grew up in an environment which enriched and nurtured her. It just happened to include 40 hours in a nursery as well.

agreed and perhaps it is that balance that is missing for some children.