To want DS to go to nursery full time...?

[LadyOfWaffle]

He went from 3 mornings to 5 mornings over the last half term and is starting a new nursery on Monday that's 5 afternoons, but they have started a lunctime club so you can join a morning and an afternoon together. I am a SAHM but DS seems to need so much more than I can give him (he loves school so so much) and TBH I could do with the longer break to look after DS2 (who seems to take second place abit?) and start some college work. He has just turned 3, which makes me feel like I am coping out abit IYSWIM... I just feel guilty for even dreaming thinking about it.

Sorry - that should be "doom merchants".

The only downside to the eminently sensible plan of gradually upping the sessions and seeing how things go is that obviously the OP will have to pay for the additional sessions (and any top up) over 5 sessions a week. LOW's son should, at just over 3 be qualifying for the 5 free/funded sessions. Lunches can be expensive too. But that is a side issue really.

In Belgium, Kindergarten starts from 2.5. It is possible to do half days. Or go home for lunch. Or to do a full day of 8.30 til 3.30. (After school care available for working parents who need it). It is free (apart from lunch/after school).

It is NOT compulsory, but 99% of parents use it to a lesser or greater extent because it is recognised as being the best introduction to school. The dcs have lots of fun and it all about learning through play.

Though they also learn how to socialise, to sit down for lunch, to pay attention for short periods. They cover themes e.g the weather, the farm, baking - from the field to the cake. My dd has positively bloomed. She knows so much at 5 and has made lots of friends. To me, she is so well set up for when "proper" learning has to start.

Yes - my comment that all non-nursery children are clingy, whingey etc is of course bllcks in the same way that all the other counter-argument sweeping generalisations on this thread are.
I said it semi tongue-in-cheek to make the point that just because one person has a viewpoint and experience it doesn't in any way make it more valid than anyone elses?

So equally bllcks are statements on this thread like:

"5 sessions are way enough when they are so very little" (says who? every child is different)
"in terms of intellectual or social stimulus children do not need this on a full time basis" er, what proof for this?

"it's a real shame to send them out every day" A shame for who? Sometimes I think these comments reflect more on a mother's need and desire to be with her child, rather than a child's need?

Kerala - in answer to your question, I think it is in your own posts - you say your daughter is fine when you pick her up, but a bit tearful when you drop her off. What do the staff say - does she cry all the time she's there - I'd be surprised if she does (and if so, then nursery is NOT a good choice) but I know so many children who shed a few tears at drop off, but had alreday forgotten this, and were tearing around with their buddies by the time the parents had walked back past the window outside.

There is never any right answers in these discussions about nurseries. Both 'sides' have equally unfounded arrogant beliefs that 'their' choice is the (only) right one... and to be honest that's the thing that's really boll*cks, because there are lots of 'right' choices depending on the child.

don't think there is any one answer to this

what's right for one child might not be right for another

think the only sensible plan is for the OP to look at her child and think about what might be the best/most fun option for him.

Upping the sessions and seeing how it goes sounds wise. In the OP's shoes I would be tempted to go for something like two half days, two full days and a day off, or similar depending on funding. DD was in nursery three full days a week (approx 8.15-5.15) from six months to 4.6, and while that was with me working, I think it was a good pattern. We got a couple of full days together when we could do the sort of things (soft play, swimming etc) that are packed with 'orrible school children during the weekends and holidays. She did half days when she started school, and I took a month off work, and I realised from that that half a day off from childcare is really nothing, and I didn't even have another DC to look after, just a house to attempt to get straight!

violet hill i was referring to the op's comments that she didn't have as many toys as they did at nursery.
I stand by what i said children would much rather be with mum than at nursery. Alot of mums send their children to give them a break and then justify it with they are happier there than at home.
There are plenty of activities you can do with your child together just easier i suppose to send them to nursery so someone else can do that with them but then someone else gets the pleasure of spending time with them

What a bitter post lou222.

The OP mentioned toys as just one aspect of the nursery. There are many other aspects of nursery - the interaction with other little ones, with other adults, group activities etc.

You say:
'I stand by what i said children would much rather be with mum than at nursery.'
So clearly, you lump all children together, and make a narrow assumption that they are all the same and should be treated in the same way. Heaven forbid that parents should actually be trusted to know their own children best.

Some children don't enjoy nursery as much as others. Some enjoy it but take longer to integrate, and need to build up gradually. Which is what the OP has acknowledged. She is looking at her child and considering what will be best for HIM not for her.

Unfortunately some mothers need their children more than their children need them, and subsequently build their entire identity and existence around their children and then have to justify it by claiming that their child couldn't possibly be happy any other way. If you don't want to send your child to nursery then fine, don't do it - but at least be honest with yourself that it's about your needs, not your child's.

sorry don't see what is bitter about my post but yours is very defensive hope i haven't hit a nerve!!
my child doesn't yet need to go to nursery because i do lots of activities with him myself - that is clearly not about my needs but about his
i think it is safe to say he feels closer to me and more of a bond than he would with any nursery staff member
I am not saying children shouldnt go to nursery i was particularly referring to the op's comment about the nursery having more toys and again say it's not really about toys.
fine to send your child to nursery for an odd session but all day for 5 days a week ??
maybe you should be honest about your needs !!
and the fact you put them before your childs.

I don't think it will do him any harm as it is only until 3.00 and as you say he clearly enjoys his time there. Having said that before you know it he will be in full time school and will have to go all day and as others have said you won't get the time back. I think a good compromise would be full time for 2/3 days a week and half day for the remaining days.

Don't think that you have to constantly provide stimulation for your children, ds was quite happy just pottering about and walking to the shops.

You really don't see it do you Lou?
I quote from your post:

'I stand by what i said children would much rather be with mum than at nursery.'

Speak for yourself. Your child might not be happy at nursery. But other people's are. You make a huge generalisation by saying that children (ie children in general, not just yours) would rather not be in nursery.

And BTW, it's perfectly possible for children who go to nursery to also do lots of fun, exciting activities at home with their parents too. I certainly did with mine. The two things aren't mutually exclusive you know! Nursery isn't a subsitute for all the lovely things you do at home - it complements them.

Lou - it seems as though you definitely want to hit a nerve!!
And I hate that sort of stuff. Unsisterly.
You are trying to imply that any woman who dares to think of herself from time to time is selfish. That is just plain sexist and as I said, unsisterly.

i dont think this is about being unsisterly. To me, its about choice, whats right for you and your child-being respectful of that,(and I dont think Lou was being disrespectful,though she certainly hit a nerve with some, and if thats the case,thats for each person to ask themselves why).
For me, my choice,was to have my dc at home with me,until they could go to nursery at 3,(either 5 mornings or afternoons a week-only 2.5hrs a time).
I am a SAHM and made the decision to be so, until all my dc were at school full-time.This wasnt cos we were well-off and me n ot having a wage didnt matter-we struggled on my dh wage alone,but we made choices-we didnt have two cars, holidays abroad, beaautiful house etc.(I mention this, cos I often hear women say , but we need 2wages, only for most of that wage to go on childcare).
It seems to me, at a fundamental level, that young children need their parents,(mum or dad),to be their primary care-givers-and not just babies. Of course some dc are happy at nursery,but,equally,they are happy at home. DC adapt to their environment-so, if they go to nursery fulltime, 5 days a week from a young age, that is what they know, and the majority will seem happy and content.
This whole debate about dc being in childcare or at home,or how many days/hours they should go-as in the OPs post is controversial for all women.But,to me, it is something that should be given thought before we make the decision to have dc. No matter how equal we want to be and should be with men, it is us, who have the dc and us who are affected most with choice of career and being able to keep working.I think of it, as juggling balls, or keeping all the plates spinning-something usually has to give.As a woman,one has to decide,in the end, which has priority-dc or career/job-mostly,this is not a decision that needs not be even enterained by men.
I understand perfectly,that some women have to/want to work.But, if your dc spends as much time at nursery as you do at work,then this is difficult. Which,however unsisterly this seems,is why, women cant have it all. I didnt have dc for someone else to bring them up-and I am capable of stimulating them and socialising them myself-as Im sure the OP is.(Ive got 6 dc and it is possible to give each dc time-just not always easy with dc of varying ages and needs).
Sorry for hijack of thread, but need to get this off my chest-every time this topic comes up,I get itchy fingers.
Think mostly, I just want to shout AAAAAARGH, at a couple of the points on this thread. Someone put their dc in nursery for 50hrs a week-my god, thats more than the national maximum working week... Hows do you know it didnt do any harm? Mostly,dc at nursery arent able to express their feelings on these matters. A TEACHER pays for some childcare during holidays, as shed die without ME time.AAAAAARGH-how many holidays do teachers get? Thats seriously mad. Have your ME time when the dc are in bed, or when they are out playing, or reading. If you are not naturally maternal, no-one made you have dc-sorry, but these are the choices women have to make. Same for women, who couldnt face looking after their own dc for-wait for it-24hrs.(Not on this thread, but another on MN).Dont have dc, then, you wont have to, and you can have all the ME time in the world.
So sorry OP for missing the point of your thread and for ranting like some Victor Meldrew-will go and take some valium and get back in the cupboard.

Go for it. A good nursery is good for children. Personally I think better than staying at home with mum at this age.

There is not a lot of good research into the effects of nursery care for pre-schoolers, but what there is does say that for those who are put in nursery fulltime there are negative effects such as increase in agressive behaviour.

eskimum has hit the nail on the head - there is limited research into this area, but none of it reflects well on children who are put into full time childcare from an early age.

FWIW I worked in nurseries for 4 or 5 years, at one point doing supply for 6 months, and I have never ever worked anywhere that I would be happy to send my children.

And it is rubbish to suggest that children who stay at home until 3 or 4 or even (gasp) 5 are clingy and whingy children. Evidence shows the opposite. Children who spend a lot of time at home are more likely to be secure in their closest relationships and therefore less concerned when left by their parents as they know their parents are going to return to them soon. Children who have often been left for long periods from an early age are more likely to feel abandoned and then find more issues with separation anxiety later on. Read 'From birth to three'. It's good.

Having said all that, my ds was in full time nursery for a few months from the age of 8 months. I was so glad when we moved countries so I didn't work any more. I missed my work, and my 'me' time but it was the best thing for my son.

eskimum, limited research? I grew up in Sweden and went to FT nursery. I am mid-30s. Scandinavian children have attended FT nursery since the 70s and if I don't think we are particularly aggressive.

I don't get the angst so many Brits seem to have about nurseries. In Scandinavia, you would have to look long and hard for a child of 3 years old who are not in FT nursery.

My ds goes to nursery 3 full days a week, 7am - 5pm. He clearly loves it. He gets to play with other children his own age, something he only gets intermittently me with. Playing with friends or Sainsbury's with mum?? He is in a stimulating and rewarding environment. As a result of not always being with mum or dad he is confident,social and independent. Nursery days are long but he has a structure and rythym to his week that gives him security and stability. It is ludicrous and presumptious to suggest that at home with mum is always best.

Myself and dp both teachers. If we can we send ds to nursery in our holidays for continuity for our ds - how confusing to be taken out of nursery for 2 wks or 6 wks then taken back!

Fairymum - Swedish nurseries are very different from British ones. I would happily have my dc at a Swedish nursery (and having spend a reasonable amount of time in Sweden, and with many Swedish friends I feel pretty well qualified to say how different they are).

And Scotagm - you do yourself down. My dc love going to Sainsbury's with me. They love all the choosing, deciding, conversation etc etc.

I'm not saying nursery is dreadful, but being at home with parents is not bad either. All of my kids love pottering around with me - cooking, chatting etc. It drives me mad sometimes, but that's another story.

I am always astonished at how judgemental women are of each other in this regard.
Surely each woman does what's best for her children? Perhaps the woman who was studying 50 hours a week was a single Mum and wanted to secure a better future for her children. What's wrong with that?
hy do women care so much? I can't see my husband caring or frankly even knowing what his male friends child care arrangements are. Their business.
I know a family where both parents work very long hours and the kids are all lovely. Clever, friendly, kind. We've been away with them and they are just as close as we are.
Why can't women just support each other?
I've just come back from a developing country and all the women there work - they bloody have to. The kids go to whoever, Aunts, nieghbours, anyone. The women support one another. They have more kindness and solidarity in their little fingers than MN put together.

mum23monkeys, how exactly do they differ if I may ask? I have 4 children who all attend or have attended 2 different British nurseries. I would not rate the ones we have experience of any less than Swedish nurseries.

scotagm-yes, you are right-your dcs nursery da ys are long-7am-5pm. That must mean, that his day actually starts at 6am,(unless you live right beside the nursery). By the time he gets home, its 6pm? Time for dinner, bath and bed,as hes probably exhausted by then. On the days he goes to nursery, you and dp spend more time interacting with other peoples dc than your own.DC who spend their day at home, also have structure and stability and are confident and sociable-and they are not competing for adult attention with x amount of other dc.
You send your dc to nursery in the hols for continuity? Oh, please. My 3yr old goes to nursery for 2.5hrs each afternoon. She gets, that sometimes she goes and sometimes she doesnt-even if she doesnt fully understand what a school holiday is. It doesnt upset/confuse her. Next, youll be sending him at weekends, so as not to upset him. Who are you really doing it for, and why are you and dp allowed a break in routine, and not him.(write 100 lines-must enjoy going to Sainsburys with ds more).
Litchick-thats my point-men do not worry about childcare very much at all-in general, they dont have to,(no, Im not sexist or a Lesbian).(Not that thers anything wrong with being a Lesbian).

Bigpants - some of us actually believe in equal parenting. My DH has always been just as interested in how our children are cared for as I am.

And please don't use that emotive phrase about 'paying other people to bring your children up' - it's utter tosh - we all bring our children up whether we work outside the home or not.

Good for you that you want to stay home. Let the rest of us who want to work outside the home do it our way. Our children are not missing out and will be just as clever, confident, charming and sociable as yours!

Big pants - you misunderstand me.
I wasn't saying DH not interested in our child care arrangements. Of course we both take a view on that.
What I was saying is that he would never judge anyine else on theirs assuming that it's a. their business and b. being generous of spirit, that they're doing what's right for their family.
The point I was making was that he would not undermine someone else's child care arrangements in the way that so many women would.

Oh dear, thats me and Lou222 now had a telling off from violethill.
I also believe in equal parenting, but, it is mostly women you will hear say, I need to take a day off/make other childcare arrangements when the dc are ill-not me playing devils advocate, just sad fact.
And as for utter tosh, look back at your response to lou222 earlier.If its good for me that I want to stay at home,and I should let the rest of you that work etc etc,please do not be sooo presumptious, that I/we who do stay at home,are doing it for our needs and ignoring the needs of our dc,because without them,we have no meaning for our existance.
I dont recall my dc being born with handbook clasped tightly to them,saying, now I an here, please send me off to nursery for x amount of hrs/day cos if you dont,you are putting your needs first, and I will turn out whiney and clingy.(Aware you didnt write that last bit-got carried away).
Anyway, Im going to write as much tosh as I want to.

Bigpants1 - yes my son is up at 6.10am on a nursery day and yes it is close, so home by 5.15pm. He is not exhausted by the end of the day - that is your presumption.

Of course, on a work day I spend more time interacting with other peoples children than my own. I'm a teacher, ffs, what else would I do at work!

Your child is three, my is nearly two and wouldn't understand, to the same extent, about a break in routine. My ds spends a huge amount of holiday time with me and his dad, but will still use some of his nursery time as well. He has jsut left now, with his dad, so a 9am start and home by 3pm. As for, why are we allowed a break in our routine? All day will be spent working/marking/preparing - that's what teachers do. (Once I get off mumsnet) (grin)