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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want DS to go to nursery full time...?

180 replies

LadyOfWaffle · 15/04/2009 16:33

He went from 3 mornings to 5 mornings over the last half term and is starting a new nursery on Monday that's 5 afternoons, but they have started a lunctime club so you can join a morning and an afternoon together. I am a SAHM but DS seems to need so much more than I can give him (he loves school so so much) and TBH I could do with the longer break to look after DS2 (who seems to take second place abit?) and start some college work. He has just turned 3, which makes me feel like I am coping out abit IYSWIM... I just feel guilty for even dreaming thinking about it.

OP posts:
violethill · 17/04/2009 09:14

Quote from Bigpants:

'I didnt have dc for someone else to bring them up'

Well here's news for you - neither did I or indeed anyone else I know. We all have children to bring them up ourselves. Some of us just do it without feeling that we have to be under the same roof as them 24 hours a day.

That's what I found offensive about your post Bigpants. Quite simple. The assumption that anyone who isn't doing it your way is not 'bringing their own children up'. It's a pathetic line to use.
And no, I wasn't 'telling you off' (what a bizarrely childish assumption!) - I was explaining why many people would find your choice of phrase offensive.

WinkyWinkola · 17/04/2009 09:20

Besides, bringing up children involves exposure to lots of different influences and people - not just the parents. It's not about just bringing them up yourself, by yourself. That would make for a weird kid, I reckon.

LadyOfWaffle, you know your DS best. Try sending him full time, see if he likes it. You can mix and match a bit, surely?

Or maybe keep him home Friday afternoons and plan a special jaunt somewhere for the three of you?

I know that my DS just gets bored with me. I'm old hat to him. Even if I get out his favourite paints and paper. He finds it all a bit same-y.

Litchick · 17/04/2009 12:00

Bigpants you seem to think it is very wrong for children to be in childcare so I just hope you never need the help of a female doctor, nurse, dentist, lawyer or police woman. I hope your MP isn';t a woman. I hope you don't enjoy watching films with female actresses, or reading books written by women.. . because a good deal of those women will have kids you know.

Bigpants1 · 17/04/2009 20:23

AAAAARGH.Women having all sorts of positions in the work place is great and of course important-I did use to work myself you know. I dont think dc being in childcare is wrong or awful, if you can find good quality care. Its just the amount of hours young dc are in nursery for, doesnt sit well with me-but thats me.
violethill-you found some of my post offensive, likewise I did yours,and I said which bit. We both love our dc and want whats best for them-lets agree to differ.

LadyG · 17/04/2009 21:39

Hmmmm I have much sympathy with the OP. My DS (3.9) is in preschool 5 mornings a week and I have just signed him up for 3 afternoons a week with some misgivings (he of course is thrilled -had 2 trial long days last term and loved them). I am on maternity leave and should be thrilled to spend the afternoon with him every day but tbh 9-11.45 is just a rubbish amount of time to get anything done when you have an 8 month old DD as well and I'd rather have a bit of time to sort stuff out-housework/admin/cooking while DD naps and then be able to focus on them both completely and hopefully haul them off to the park as the evenings are lighter straight from pre-school. We'e just had a 3 week Easter break from pre-school and today we've done painting (including a big footprint mural) made playdough and cornflour gloop cleared up resulting huge mess been to the library in the rain with wellies much stamping in puddles etc and watched the Aristocats. Lovely but very little got scratched off my to do list...

eskimum · 17/04/2009 22:56

Nevertheless, what is being found out from these research studies that are being done, is that children who spend 40 hours upwards in nursery each week show more signs of anxiety and antisocial behaviour by the time they get to school age than children who didn't spend as much time in nursery.

Most pre-schoolers are awake for 80-100 hours a week? So 40-50 hours in nursery is half of their week. All that time spent without the people that they have a really strong attachment to, the ones they want to comfort them when they're tired, whingey, out of sorts, the ones they want to talk to when they're excited/show their new drawing to etc. Is it a surprise that they might show anxiety/other emotional problems after years of this?

Now, I know that there are instances where you have to use fulltime childcare, if you're a single parent/ or both parents have low paid jobs and so both have to work f/t, then I totally understand the dcs need to be in fulltime childcare. But I would say that child minders are the much better option - because you then have one person (who you have selected yourself) who develops a close bond over time with your dc, gets to know them properly and can be a substitute for you when you're not there. Very different to the succession of different adults your dc will go through in nursery care (due to high turnover of staff in nurseries, holidays, sick leave etc) and most of whom you have not chosen yourself to care for your child as they are just employees of the nursery.

scottishmummy · 17/04/2009 23:21

jesus wept for your sanity dont ask nursery questions on MN.all the precious moments mamas will rock up with he i wouldn't let strangers watch my child/no point having them if you not about/nursery nurse reprobates beating dem children..yadda yada

there is a huge amount of research many with dubious empirical,qualitative,sampling errors/assumptions.my understanding is there is not a body of definitive evidence that conclusively demonstrates nursery is bad

mums should do what suits their individual circumstances.

if that means work and nursery - ok
if that means sahm - ok

what is genuinely sad the implicit message that motherhood is best achieved only at home.see the thing is motherhood isn't one size fits all.

Northernlurker · 17/04/2009 23:31

'All that time spent without the people that they have a really strong attachment to, the ones they want to comfort them when they're tired, whingey, out of sorts, the ones they want to talk to when they're excited/show their new drawing to etc.'

Eskimum - that's crap. My daughter goes to nursery full time because I'm working full time. She adores all the nursery staff and talks about them all the way there and all the way home (as far as she can as she is two) She gets lots of cuddles and plainly feels comfortable there. In the year we have used the nursery no staff have left. The head of the baby room was visibly upset when dd moved downstairs - a change which has been effected very gradually and with utmost care.

I am so sick of the nursery bashing that goes on on mnet. If you pick a good nursery then your child will be safe, happy and cared for.

Northernlurker · 17/04/2009 23:34

Oh and bigpants 'I didnt have dc for someone else to bring them up' Does that make me a part-time parent then?

scottishmummy · 17/04/2009 23:40

i had mortgage,was solvent,loved work when got up the nelly duff.no way i was giving that up just because i had baby

being a mum isn't a giving thing up competition
who is biggest martyr mum
no holidays for years,2ndhand clothes.

but pragmatically ypu have to pay the bills.

people should do what they want

LadyOfWaffle · 17/04/2009 23:41

Cripes I forgot about this thread- has it kicked off? Am I being flamed?

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 17/04/2009 23:44

read it and see?or are you waiting on executive summary and namecheck?

emkana · 17/04/2009 23:45

I would just say that the time goes so quickly and be sure you don't regret it later not to have spent the time with your ds when you had the chance.

violethill · 17/04/2009 23:54

Thank you scottishmummy and northernlurker for your straight talking common sense.

I find the nursery bashing on MN probably the most invidious thing on it. The likes of bigpants who make snide comments about nurseries 'bringing up children' - for crying out loud, NO THEY DON'T, parents bring up children. Nuseries, nannies and childminders are just one aspect of the child's experience - just as neighbours, grandparents, the wider community etc is. Why is it that some women just can't believe that children can be very happy and settled at nursery? Are they threatened by that? Is their self esteem so bound up with their own children that they are terrified of letting go?

There have been various 'studies' which don't actually conclude anything useful - because some will say that nursery leads to better outcomes and some will say the opposite. Children are not statistics anyway. Why not trust other parents to make choices that work for them?

LadyofWaffle - don't feel the guilt - send your ds to nursery if he wants to go!

scottishmummy · 18/04/2009 00:00

my parents raised me.school educated me.there is a big difference

children need attachment,love affirmation and as long as they receive that they will be ok.this can be achieved at home and at nursery

don't aim for perfection,goood enough will suffice

scottishmummy · 18/04/2009 00:00

my parents raised me.school educated me.there is a big difference

children need attachment,love affirmation and as long as they receive that they will be ok.this can be achieved at home and at nursery

don't aim for perfection,goood enough will suffice

Bigpants1 · 18/04/2009 00:42

Oh, im getting pissed off now.violethill,Ive said,we have a difference of opinion, and I ignored the fact you called me childish, when what I had said to you was with tongue in cheek.(ie, the telling off).
But, the gloves are off. If you want to act the grown-up-fine, but that means you accepting/allowing people to have an opinion that varies from yours.
I was not making snide comments and I dont think im nursery bashing.I asked, if you hold the belief that its fine to work, and put dc in childcare, then, do not then turn round and bash mothers who choose to keep their dc at home.Yet, you still persist with the "are they threatened by that?Is there self esteem..." There is nowt wrong with my self esteem, thankyou,and I was sad when my youngest dd started nursery, but,fragile though you may think I am, I have got over it and have other things going on in my life.
"Why not trust other parents to make choices that work for them?" Thats a tad rich coming from you, who clearly thinks that parents making a different choice to you are emotional wrecks.Me- i doth think a nerve hath been hit and the lady doth protest too much. But, continue to bash-Im away to consult Freud, to see what he has to say re my self-worth being bound with my dc.

violethill · 18/04/2009 01:04

Oh bigpants - read the posts FGS - my only issue with you is your choice of phrase about nurseries 'bringing up children'. Nurseries don't bring up children. Parents do.

Quite simple.

Jackaroo · 18/04/2009 01:06

BP - I'd give Freud a miss if I were you, bit of a funny bloke .......

OP - start off easy, don't make any big plans that you can't undo.

IMVVHO - Case 1 - There is a child at DS's nursery who was there 5 days a week, 8am-6pm. He used to hit/bite/clearly had emotional, and possibly developmental issues, and they weren't being address by anyone it seems. I made a formal complaint after DS was bitten 3 times in 2 weeks. The mother decided to take the boy down to 3 days a week (I'm assuming not just because of this incident of course). He's like a different creature (happier, calmer, no biting/hitting - well not my DS, I don't know about anyone else!).

Case 2 - At the preschool where I work, I met the first child I'd ever conciously known of, who had not been left with anyone outside the family - ever. Ie parents or grandparents. He had the worst time settling in. Seriously, the most it ever takes a new child is about 4-6 weeks. I went on mat. leave after 8 weeks into the first term, and he was still sobbing all morning etc etc..

So, my very scientific conclusion is that it depends on the child, but you do them no favours by assuming either end of the spectrum is a good idea for your child. Keep them at home solidly for 5 years, fine, send them to nursery from 6 months full time, fine, but allow that you might have to revise you plans.

My own quandary - Ds is at nursery 2 days/week, loves it, loves going, loves being there.. if I try and pick him up early (am in the vicinity at 2/3pm rather than 5pm) he asks if he can stay longer.

DS2 due in 10 weeks, easing DS into a 3 day/week so he has more time having fun at lesat for the next 6 months instead of sitting around waiting for me to get my head around the baby .... he is very aware of the change in hours and complains - but then won't let me pick him up at lunchtime on that day! As problems go, it's not a bad one to have.

Good luck LOW!

eskimum · 18/04/2009 08:29

Am I 'nursery bashing' just because I am expressing an opinion that is not pro-nursery??

I do so not to make anyone feel bad about thier own choices but because I think that there is a myth that nursery is good for children and it is good to question this. This is promoted partly by government who see no problem in long hours in childcare for under 5s or for schoolage children who they want to see in before nad after school clubs. I just think there should be more thought about this issue, and more discussion and this means people raising questions and being critical.

I also accept that for many people f/t childcare is unavoidable (although as I've said there are alternatives to nurseries).

But to go back to the OP this is a case of a SAHM putting her dc into f/t nursery care. And I say, just think about the disadvantages as well as what you think you will gain from it.

Northernlurker · 18/04/2009 10:10

Eskimum - you were nursery bashing because you were strongly suggesting that all nurseries have a rapid turnover of staff and that children are unable to form attachments to those staff. Both of which things in my experience (three children) are very much NOT the case. I therefore assume you are taking that position for 'effect' and so I assert that you are nursery bashing.

Bigpants - I notice you haven't answered my question. You said 'I didnt have dc for someone else to bring them up' Does that make me a part-time parent then?

Whilst we're on the subject - not all children in nurseries are there because finances mean both parents must work full time or because they are the children of single parents. Financially we are better off with me working (certainly long term) but money isn't the only reason I work full time. I work full time because I am bloody good at it and have a job that I feel passionately about. Do those of you who aren't working outside the home judge me for that decision? Because I'm not judging you.

Just one more thing - working mothers are not stupid. They can use calendars and count like the rest of you so could people please stop saying 'oh you'll never get that time bacl' or 'you don't want to miss out on that time'. We KNOW our children are getting older every day, we KNOW you can't have time over twice. Do you honestly think we haven't factored that in to our decisions? There's no need to harp on about it - just respect our intelligence please!

LadyOfWaffle · 18/04/2009 10:12

Phew, just caught up. Eskimum - your last post sums it up - think about the disadvantages too. When I was thinking about sending him 5 full days I could only see it as a positive (he really loves preschool) but now I can see the down sides too which I didn;t before. THanks everyone for your comments on this thread, it's been very helpful

OP posts:
violethill · 18/04/2009 10:23

eskimum - expressing an opinion is fine - it's what MN is for. As long as you accept that it's your opinion only, that doesn't make it 'right', and that with many of these thorny issues like childcare there is absolutely no clear consistent evidence on the subject. As Jackaroo notes, we can all point to anecdotes, but they don't prove any hard evidence one way or the other.

'Nursery bashing' is when a poster uses invidious methods, making comments such as 'I didn't have children for someone else to bring them up' ... (a quote from this trhead!)- it's offensive, because the intention is to undermine parents who use childcare.

Personally I think that too many women use such methods to try to justify their own decisions, which is a shame. Why can't they just say, 'This is what I did, it worked for me, each to their own?'

My own personal opinion is that I wouldn't be keen to use a nursery for long hours for a young baby, but that doesn't mean to say people who do are wrong. Although I returned to work after maternity leaves, I worked part time while my children were under 5 so that I could be home more, and guess what? It was because I wanted to, not because I thought it was 'better' for them in any way. Partly my reasoning is that I'm not the world's most organised person and I wasn't sure I'd cope brilliantly with F/T work and very young children, and partly because at that stage in my life it was quite pleasant to spend some of the week pottering around at home doing kiddie stuff. But I wouldn't try to justify my decision by saying 'Oh of course I only worked P/T because it was better for the kids'. How the hell would I know anyway - chances are they would have turned out just the same had I worked more hours or less! They are older now, and are bright, confident, sometimes stroppy... in other words NORMAL!! The other thing that's worth saying here is that when second dc came along, my DH actually began to feel that I was having a bit too much of the fun, and he rearranged his working hourse for a couple of years so that he was at home more (which meant me working more hours). I thought that was great. And once the children were in school, we were both able to slip back up to F/T hourse which again suits us all fine.

The point I'm making, is that actually none of us can say with absolute certainty that we have done the 'right' thing with our children, because we can't know how they would have turned out if we'd done things differently. All we can do is make decisions which feel right for us at the time, and being 100% honest, most mothers who stop working or go down to part time do it exactly for the reasons that I did - because they want to do it, not because they have any cast iron evidence that it's better for their kids. I also know a number of women who didn't particularly like the job they were doing anyway, so choose to stay home after having a baby - so in these cases again, they're not necessarily staying home because they think it's best for the child, they're doing it because they didn't like their job!! Plus there are all those women who may want to work but can't because they don't earn enough to cover childcare (been a few of those threads recently).

Stay at home if you want, work part time if you want, work full time if you want, and choose the childcare that suits YOUR family, whether it's CM, nursery or nanny. Just don't use the decision you chose to try to denigrate other people's choices.

FairyMum · 18/04/2009 14:53

I find it interesting on these threads that when I mention Scandinavian countries and other countries in Europe where the majority of children attend fulltime nursery and have done for generations, it is mostly ignored or apparently Swedish nurseries are very different from British ones (really? why?).

If it is true that children are emotionally damaged/less secure/attached by FT nursery, then surely countries like Sweden should be full of people with "issues" by now?

Be a SAHM if you enjoy it and it fits your family-life. My DH is currently a part-time SAHD because at this point in our life it makes sense for us.Don't be a SAHM thinking your children will show at their first day of school any happier, secure,clever or attached than children who have been brought up differently.

Brangelina · 18/04/2009 15:17

Fairymum, it's not only Scandinavian countries that put their children in fulltime pre school from age 3. I'm in Italy and my DD is in state preschool 5 days a week, from 8.30am to 5pm, as are 99% of her peers and as were a huge percentage of previous generations. No one seems to be damaged by it, there is no extra agression/emotional angst in later life or whatever full time nursery/preschool apparently causes as per reports. There are certainly fewer hoodies out here anyway and definitely far less drowning teenage sorrows in booze than in the UK. This is true, I believe, for the vast majority of continental European countries.

My DD has been in full time nursery and preschool since she was 15mo and has never had any problems, has always loved going and is extremely well-adjusted. The only negative aspect I can think of is that her English has probably suffered from being with me less.

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