to be completely horrified and insulted to see ashes on ds1's forehead?

[Foz]

my 5 year old DS1 came home from school on Ash Wednesday with ash on his forehead after his community school (not C of E) took him to Church, let the vicar give a semon to him all about Jesus/the need to pray/drinking wine is drinking the blood of Christ/stale bread is the body of Christ/Jesus dying for my son's sins/resurection/etc., then put the ash on his forehead (he did volunteer though he didn't know where he was, what they were going to do or what it meant).

Background- I was raised and practiced Jew for 30 years. Now both my husband and I are atheists. I grew up in the states where this would never be allowed within non religious schools. I fully appreciate there are many things wrong with the states but with my background I was not prepared for this.

My concerns -

1. I do not agree with collective worship in a 'broadly Christian way' that is a state requirement. It is discriminatory, insulting and unbelievable that the school should take on the role of spiritual leader for my child 5 days a week.
2. My only recourse is to exclude him which makes my son feel like something is wrong with him. How fair is that! What choice do I have?
3. Taking my son at 5 and allowing a vicar to talk to the children about Christianity without explaining faith and that this is what Christians' believe (not universal fact) is irresponsible and a form of indoctrination. This was NOT part of collective worship and how could the school not think to inform the parents before going?
4. This is all based on a Victorian law section 70 and schedule 20 which was created in Victorian times when more than 95% of the British population were practising Christians. Now less than 8% are practising - should this law still be in practice?

Sooty you clearly have a strong spiritual side, which you are happily expressing. That is a great thing and I suppose it would be even nicer if you found a niche with other people who shared your beliefs that you could celebrate with.

I am afraid that despite your protestations, you are religious Just because you aren't signed up to any mainstream religion doesn't negate that. I think that is great for you, it must be a great source of happiness, as you so beautifully describe.

To answer your question, a nice sing song and a story does not a religious experience make. I could get that from chas n dave and would probably feel a lot happier afterwards.

And yes it is the god thing I don't feel comfortable with. if there was some other form of community activity which brought together the generations regularly, celebrated big life occasions and taught a strong moral code I would be all for it. For me though, the whole not believing in god thing is pretty much of a deal breaker on the church front.

Sorry Sooty, but I think you are completely missing the point. I come from a religious family, and the point of going to church is not to hear a story or two and sing along a bit. The point is to worship God. For those of us with no faith this is an utterly pointless and rather uncomfortable experience.

The trouble is that the usual experience of a primary school child in a community school with a religious leaning is that they may make cards and hear stories about other religions, but the visits and preaching is almost exclusively Christian. So there is no balance really. On the whole the comparative religion and thinking about faith/morals/ethics stuff is secondary school level, at primary level I suspect that it is more 'here is a story about Diwali, lets make some cards about that', and then here is the vicar to tell you all about Jesus. The two are not comparable in my book. Certainly my kids have never come home and said that they are now Buddhists or Jews or Muslim, but dd is sure she is a Christian because of the vicar visiting her school.

I don't think the songs of Chas and Dave provide any life lessons, or attempt to do so, so a cult around them might be a bit tricky.

I agree Sooty, the DC will make up their own mind.
I would love to know how you are so certain there isn't a God, Shambolic. I think there is, but have no certainties, I have specific reasons for thinking it, but could be completely wrong. I would never tell a DC that someone had gone to heaven and I would never tell them that there was no such place and death was the end. I would say that I believed that death wasn't the end, but didn't know what form it took but that the love lived on.
Parents can only say what they believe.

Vegetarianism keeps coming into the argument-you can't force your DC to be a vegetarian just because you are. When they are young you have complete control over their diet so of course you can at that stage, but as they get older they realise that not the whole world is vegetarian. They will be offered things like sausage rolls, unless you are a complete control freak and try and prevent it, they have free choice. (If you are a control freak you have to allow for the fact they eat it and don't tell you). When they are independant they may agree and be vegetarian for life or they may reject it and love eating meat. (My vegan friends have a son who got a Saturday job in a butchers!-he had a phase of eating meat and went back to being vegetarian).
Religion is the same, when they are under 5 you have complete control over what they are told and what you want them to think. They then start to go out in the world and realise that not everyone is the same. When they are independant they make up their own minds. They may agree, they may not. It is up to them. They can be different in the same household. My cousin (occasional Cof E goer) has 2 children. The daughter won't go near the church and won't have her new baby christened, the son is at university-a leading light in the scripture union (if I have the right name)and very evangelical.They had the same upbringing.

I don't think it is healthy to tell your DC what they have to believe and try and prevent them hearing different views. Ultimately they will decide for themselves-you have no control.I wouldn't make it a big deal in the first place-I firmly believe it is counter productive. If my DSs had had ashes on their forehead, they wouldn't have even thought it worth a mention-neither would I.

I have to say that my cousin isn't happy with either DCs choice. She would like a christening for her grand daughter and she worries about her DS being too zealous and open to cults. However she accepts their choices and keeps quiet.

nooka - now I wonder if that depends where you live?

In w yorks where I went to school - we had no end of trips to Hindu, Sikh, Islamic places of worship. And a play day at a Eventh Day Adventist I believe.
Those were the vibrant active community faiths reaching out to educate. Can't remember our RC church ever inviting a single soul to visit from another school. The Priest came to give mass 1st Frday of the month and that was about it apart from the major festivals.

Mind you - RE teacher told us contraception went against God's teaching. Not wise in an innercity school of hormonal girls!

I think you all have some very valid points about exposure to religions which any atheist I know would whole-heartedly agree with.
The crossing line for me,an atheist, and the point I think you are missing is that I do NOT agree with my children being forced through collective worship to PRACTICE a religion (Christianity in this case) without them being at an age and understanding to CHOOSE to do so for themselves.

My child has been to 2 Christian weddings, a funeral,a chrisening 2 secular weddings, and will be attending a bar mitzvah later in the year. I would be happy for my child to visit any type of religion establishement, learn about customs, etc. where it is explained to them what people of this faith believe not what is known as FACT. This is where I object. Christanity is NOT fact and should not be taught to my child as so. In addition, my child should not be made to feel different because I feel the school is overstepping the mark by asking my child to WORSHIP by the Christian faith and not just EDUCATE him on the beliefs and values of the faith.

So, religious education - ABSOLUTELY
Christian collective worship - NO THANK YOU.

I agree entirely Foz-but to go around in circles again-you won't get it until the church is separate from the state.

I don't think that's what Foz meant. I think she was objecting to a one off practice of worship, not necessarily thinking it would lead to a lifetime of church going. Although it is worth bearing in mind that that is what the priest will be hoping, as these activities are part of their evangelical mission.

I suspect at heart the disagreement here is to the role of religion/faith. For those of you who think it is essentially a benign thing, and should be welcomed and explored then of course a trip to church cannot be seen as in any way bad.

For those who feel that faith/religion is actually fairly malevolent then the trips and general evangelical influence of the church on our small and highly influenceable children feels quite threatening.

For those who think that school should be about education and not indoctrination then time spent on religious ceremonies is simply time wasted.

Exactly, Sooty-you have really sensible posts IMO.
It is up to the DC to decide.
Up until 5yrs it is wonderful because the DC is likely to say 'my mummy says or my daddy says'. They then start school and it becomes 'my teacher says', it is highly annoying to get the world according to Mrs ...., especially if it is the exact opposite to your own beliefs. (My DH used to joke about it as in 'it must be right because Mrs Jones says so'!) However this is only a phase, you never ever hear a teenager saying 'my teacher says', they grow out of it in the juniors.
The next stage is to take everyone's views and make their own.The wise parent realises they have no control over their offspring's thoughts.

There is a most interesting article about Nick Howard in the Sunday Times today. He is the son of Michael Howard and grew up in a liberal, Jewish household. He is obviously very intelligent as he has degrees from Oxford and Durham. He couldn't finish theological college because his views are so rigid (I wouldn't even want to say what they were as many people on here would be offended)and he is now an evangelical, Christian preacher with no interest in money or possessions. What impressed me is that not only do his parents not agree with his beliefs but they must find them deeply embarrassing, however they are still on good terms and accept him as he is.
Your DC will make up their own mind.
You may even change your own minds-my father could have been Shambolic posting and then he got confirmed when he was 53yrs old! Nothing is set in stone.
I think that probably school isn't the place for collective worship, but it isn't that important and is more likely to put them off than anything else! I doubt whether it even registers with some DCs-unless the parent makes a big deal out of it.

To answer a question from much earlier, I don'e believe in god in the same was as I don't believe in ghosts, aliens or goblins. Lots of people do believe in those things, and that'f fine for them, but i see no need to explain why I don't believe in an invisible all powerful entity.

FWIW it;s not a question of shielding DD from all religious activity. We had the pope on the TV this morning (wasn't really listening though) and I told DD who he was and that he is a very important man for Catholics, and that the people singing were in a church.

What I didn't do was join in with the prayers and encourage her to do the same.

If people want to do religon, fine. It's interesting to hear different peoples beliefs and how they help shape the views of people around the world and so on.

But worshipping, just no. How can you worship something you don't believe in? Isn't it insulting to those who do believe to do so? And a 5 year old can't make their own mind up, which is why people get so naffed off with the whole collective worship at school thing in the first place.

As pisces says though we are going around in circles, but I have found this discussion very interesting. Certainly food for thought with the primary schools local to me, their religious stance and having to think about what DD will do in a couple of years time...

You may think it unimportant, but many don't (otherwise there would be no religious schools after all). I am of course happy for my children to explore belief, religion, anthropology, ethics etc, in fact I would be deeply disappointed if they didn't. However that is not something a five year old is equipped to do, nor is it how Christianity at any rate is presented to infant aged children. Has anyone found their small child come home and say "did you know some people believe..." no. They come home with blanket statements like good people go to heaven, or God created the world, or Jesus died for me - statements of belief accepted as fact because that's what small children expect to be told at school. I don't particularly see that this should be accepted as just one of those things, and never mind dear because it doesn't really matter.

btw I would never tell my child "I don't believe and therefore neither should you", and I don't know any thinking aetheist parent that does (not saying that there might not be people who take that approach) I am more interested to get my children thinking about the why's of the universe than coming up wit a concrete answer.

dh looking over my shoulder thinks that aetheists are just fundamenatlly argumentative, and that's the value we try and encourage in our children. I guess to some extent he is right, and that's why the pat religious answers get up our backs so.

Whilst we have what is essentially a state religion (the Church of England being 'Established' by law, and the Governor of the Church of England being the Queen), then schools cannot be secular - any more than parliament is (they have prayers to open sessions too).

You may not agree with this - I don't - but the constant emphasis on schools is a red herring. If you want to solve the problem then you need to campaign to disestablish the Church of England!