to be completely horrified and insulted to see ashes on ds1's forehead?

[Foz]

my 5 year old DS1 came home from school on Ash Wednesday with ash on his forehead after his community school (not C of E) took him to Church, let the vicar give a semon to him all about Jesus/the need to pray/drinking wine is drinking the blood of Christ/stale bread is the body of Christ/Jesus dying for my son's sins/resurection/etc., then put the ash on his forehead (he did volunteer though he didn't know where he was, what they were going to do or what it meant).

Background- I was raised and practiced Jew for 30 years. Now both my husband and I are atheists. I grew up in the states where this would never be allowed within non religious schools. I fully appreciate there are many things wrong with the states but with my background I was not prepared for this.

My concerns -

1. I do not agree with collective worship in a 'broadly Christian way' that is a state requirement. It is discriminatory, insulting and unbelievable that the school should take on the role of spiritual leader for my child 5 days a week.
2. My only recourse is to exclude him which makes my son feel like something is wrong with him. How fair is that! What choice do I have?
3. Taking my son at 5 and allowing a vicar to talk to the children about Christianity without explaining faith and that this is what Christians' believe (not universal fact) is irresponsible and a form of indoctrination. This was NOT part of collective worship and how could the school not think to inform the parents before going?
4. This is all based on a Victorian law section 70 and schedule 20 which was created in Victorian times when more than 95% of the British population were practising Christians. Now less than 8% are practising - should this law still be in practice?

I think small children only understand symbolism if you are very clear that you are making things up/acting them out (in a dolls tea party type way), which really defeats the object IMO.

FWIW I remember being so scared and horrified and furious at the thought of having ashes put on me (when I was 9, at a CofE primary) that I managed to give myself a raging temperature and get the day off school.
I was scared it would hurt (I think I thought the ashes would be hot) but had also been given some explanation that it was to do with showing you were ashamed of your sin and all that, which I found, even at the age of 9, a load of insulting old bollocks. And what really drove me nuts was my powerlessness - I couldn't ask them to leave me out of it because I would just get told to stop being silly and making a fuss.

On the other hand I was raised as a Catholic with a wine buff as a father, and never worried about the blood/wine thing, but then I guess at five church was something to endure every week (very boring) I suspect I didn't listen to a word.

ermm Foz - can I ask why it's taken you so long (ie it's the end of Lent now - almost) to start an AIBU thread about it if it p*ssed you off so much at the time????

treedelivery- as I said before my use of 'large' language probably has a lot to do with being an American. We sometimes have a tendancy to overstate I corrected myself somewhere in this thread.

FAQ - Earlier in the thread I explained how this was two last Wednesday which another mum at the gate explained to me was Ash Wednesday when I asked what was on his forehead. I had no reason not to take her on her word. It has been corrected.

almost the same thread a year ago

and less than 8% of the population are actually Practising - where did you drag that figure up from???

ooo well found Misdee - at least KM got her timings right (ie it was actually Ash Wednesday

btw Foz - welcome back to MN - I see it's been 4yrs since you last posted !

This report from a couple of years ago suggests that 10% of adults attend a church regularly

news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/03_04_07_tearfundchurch.pdf

slightly more recent, but contested:
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3890080.ece

Regular church attendance is definitely a minority activity, and surely going to church on Sunday is still the bedrock of being a practicing Christian?

"Given the competing demands for time it is reasonable to equate monthly attendance
with a commitment to regular churchgoing. 7.6 million UK adults (15%) attend at least
monthly. The majority of these, 4.9 million (10% of UK adults) attend at least weekly.
Adding in fringe and occasional churchgoers (5 million) means that one in four UK adults
(26%) or 12.6 million attend church at least once a year"

(from the first link)

and if you read further on it depends where in the countr you live as to how high attendance is

Oh FFS, who is this REALLY about? Your DS is FIVE, you will have far more impact on his beliefs than the hour of RE a week that he will get in school.

He'll have forgotten about it by next week. Get over yourself.

Sorry FAQ I think that report is bending over backwards to try and maintain that there are more practicing Christians than there really are. If you can't be bothered to spend an hour a week at church on a regular basis then your priorities are clearly not your faith. Attending church once a year does not make you a practicing Christian!

So 10% of the population attended a Christian church weekly two years ago, might well translate to 8% now given the falling rolls at many churches. Given the ridiculously high number of Christian schools (1 in 4 primary) the likelihood that any of the children in a community school in an area with choice of school were Christians in any meaningful way is surely pretty small?

YANBU - just a little late.

I wasnt aware that CofE do the ashes thing. i thought that was Catholicism.

i completely agree that children should be brought up to be aware of different religions but i do think that the school have overstepped the mark this time. Such a religious act should have the parent permission IMO

ermm sorry nooka - disagree there.

If you take into accoun the "montyly" attendance (which is still pretty regular)

that's 15%

"falling" church numbers are based on CoE figures - some other churches are growing rapidly

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if someone else has said this. Foz, I think you should have greater faith in your ability to teach and influence your own child. You've had him for five years before he even went to school and your influence continues after school and at weekends!

My partner grew up Jewish and has been the last 30 years a Atheist as so am I. Although we do not believe in religion, we feel it important for ourselves and our son to learn and take part in other religious events as we feel it is important in developing his knowledge and understanding of other religions, as we live in a world where religion is a big part, like it or not. it is sad to hear how upset you are as it sounds like your son took part and proberly learned alot from the experience which is a good thing.

Foz - I saw that yes, I totally understand. I am a drama queen without the American bit .

I think your argument is fair - but I also think we can't control every aspect of dc's lives and exposure to life. To try can only end in frustrated fears, and also has a crippling effect on schools and their ability to enrich our children's lives.

Maybe the ashes was a step too far - but better that than a step too far in the other direction of sterility and blandness. I'd rather they went for it at schools and ocasionally went too far, than were afraid to upset someone and did sweet fa but learn timetables.

imo

oh. You know what? Suck it up. Its not life threatening, actually, its an educational experience, they didnt stick a piercing in his lip or anything... oh no, thats next year.... lol

Treedelivery - I can see your perspective but I grew up without religion in school and never felt it was sterile or bland. I guess it is what you are used to.

I'd also like them to go for it but when it comes to science, english, math, and history. I think they should make RE interesting but it should be taught in the realm of belief not fact. That is just confusing for small children.

I do not object to my DS being taught about Christianity or any other religion. I also agree they need to make education interesting and giving children things they can see and touch is one step towards this.

What i do object to is how it was done. Without knowing they were going on this trip I couldn't prepare my child. To allow the vicar to present to them without setting some context about belief for the children I feel was wrong. To put ash on his forehead was a step too far.

Nope, I think monthly is a bit crap. But then I was brought up to consider church going an intrinsic part of life, along with saying your prayers every night. Most established churches in the UK are seeing falling rolls, CoE, Catholic, non-conformist etc. The only churches with rising numbers are the pentecostals.

The second link from 2008 states that only 4 million attend church monthly, which is a decline of 3 million in two years. Unfortunately I can't get into the research itself, so it could be poor reporting, but it wasn't for CoE only.

Here's some more interesting stuff:
www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php I like the conclusion:

'The wider picture of decline in the UK Church includes four aspects: the increasing average age, the fall in the number of men, the proportion of Christians who believe without belonging, and a tendancy to be middle class. Put them all together and the pitcure you get of the Church in the UK is one that fails to attract four people groups:

Christians
men
young people
the poor

Put like that it is no wonder that the Church is declining. If you are a poor young male Christian the chance of you going to Church are abysmally low. Can you imagine the difficulty of finding a young carpenter or fisherman going to Church in the UK?'

Fine, FAQ if you want to go down that track. Let's go with your exaggerated (imo) percentage of 15%. According to www.statistics.gov.uk in 2007 (only recents numbers they officially have)there were approx. 61M people in the UK. Children under 16 represented 1/5 of the population which is roughly 12.2M. So if we go with your numbers approx. 1.83M come from practicing C of E homes and 10.37M come from other religions, non practicing C of E and non religious.

These rough numbers would suggest Nooka has a valid point that -
'Given the ridiculously high number of Christian schools (1 in 4 primary) the likelihood that any of the children in a community school in an area with choice of school were Christians in any meaningful way is surely pretty small?'

So if 51% of a school is non religous shouldn't that be respected as well. Just some 'food for thought' on this late evening

I am surprised that the school didn't inform you about the trip, but I am no expert!!!

I can understand with your background that it annoyed you and made you very angry. However, children learn a lot at school that could be deemed "the responsibility of the parents to teach them" eg sex education, healthy eating, hygiene, world events etc etc etc. I personally do not need anyone else telling my kids how to stay fit and healthy, they are educated at home on those issues!!! BUT I do not rant and rave and insist that they are removed from any such "mumbo jumbo" lessons, on the off that the teacher will make them eat something that I strongly object to.
It is all part of education and does not mean that your child will immediately join a religious cult and ruin their entire life because of this visit.