to be completely horrified and insulted to see ashes on ds1's forehead?

[Foz]

my 5 year old DS1 came home from school on Ash Wednesday with ash on his forehead after his community school (not C of E) took him to Church, let the vicar give a semon to him all about Jesus/the need to pray/drinking wine is drinking the blood of Christ/stale bread is the body of Christ/Jesus dying for my son's sins/resurection/etc., then put the ash on his forehead (he did volunteer though he didn't know where he was, what they were going to do or what it meant).

Background- I was raised and practiced Jew for 30 years. Now both my husband and I are atheists. I grew up in the states where this would never be allowed within non religious schools. I fully appreciate there are many things wrong with the states but with my background I was not prepared for this.

My concerns -

1. I do not agree with collective worship in a 'broadly Christian way' that is a state requirement. It is discriminatory, insulting and unbelievable that the school should take on the role of spiritual leader for my child 5 days a week.
2. My only recourse is to exclude him which makes my son feel like something is wrong with him. How fair is that! What choice do I have?
3. Taking my son at 5 and allowing a vicar to talk to the children about Christianity without explaining faith and that this is what Christians' believe (not universal fact) is irresponsible and a form of indoctrination. This was NOT part of collective worship and how could the school not think to inform the parents before going?
4. This is all based on a Victorian law section 70 and schedule 20 which was created in Victorian times when more than 95% of the British population were practising Christians. Now less than 8% are practising - should this law still be in practice?

Ok, maybe I was a bit snipey, if the school didn't inform you before hand, then yanbu.

Lulois - you are absolutely right and I now have informed the teachers and will be doing so. I was surprised this was part of eductaion as I grew up with religion being separate from eduction so I didn't even think to enquire.Do you allow your children to go to assembly?

No chequersmate- different person but I will look at this thread. thanks.

If my child went to a local non-denominational community school, it would not cross my mind that they might take them for outings where they were worshipping deities of any type, so I would not have thought to have pre-empted it.

Like I wouldn't expect them to go on any other random outings which might upset a lot of people, without asking first.

To say that the OP should have, at her local non-denominational school, thought to have specified this seems rather harsh.

I agree with all your arguments, the school should certainly have told you this outing was going to happen.

But your outrage is slightly OTT. Why does it matter that about the ashes? No-one did it to insult you. Most people are a bit more tolerant than you.

foz, there is an interesting thread on similar lines called 'AIBU to not want my child to do a reading in church?' with lots of really good , thought provoking posts on it, have a read

As it took place a full 5 weeks after Ash Wednesday it might have been a 'This is what christians do on Ash Wednesday' lesson rather than an act of worship.

I don't know about CofE but in a RC church you don't get the ashes if you aren't baptised.

Herbeatiude - That would probably be my American way of speaking-we certainly can be OTT without meaning too. I was shocked and upset the teachers didn't consider it might upset the parents.

Thanks luluis- I'll have a look.

At the moment in many schools you have the option to take your child out of school worship. But the pressure is not to make your child feel different, so quite a lot of parents seem to be letting their child go because they don't want their child to be excluded (including myself).

But what if it were the other way round and parents and children could decide whether the child would go to a worship service. And the service would perhaps not be in school time and see what happens, maybe the numbers would be smaller.

I think there are lots of parents out there who are unhappy with the status quo but don't know what to do and don't want to rock the boat.

I'd be quite angry actually. A child of 5 believes everything their teacher tells them - sometimes over-riding what parents say - and for them to be taken into a place of worship without being explained that it is not 'Fact' (to everyone) is irresponsible. I remember one of my DDs coming home telling me all about God and how he made the world after one RE lesson about creation - can't think how much worse taking her into church unprepared would have been!

I also don't think telling a child as young as 5 'this is what some people believe but it doesn't mean it's true' would necessarily be understood.

I knew there would be another thread on this soon!
Your DC isn't at a non religious school, he is at a non denominational school which is broadly Christian (at the very least 51%). Easter is a Christian festival, if teaching about it, it makes sense to get a vicar to explain it.

If you are not happy tell the school you do not wish your child to take part in any more services, simple as that.
I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Doesn't it seem a bit after the fact...

And doesn't opting out mean you opt out from assemblies as well as they usually involve a prayer? Another way to point out that a child is different then if so. I remember the kids who were excluded from assemblies/worship when i was in school. It didn't make them popular, let's say.

But there aren't any non religious schools

Maybe all athiests and non christians without access to a local school catering for their religion should home educate? That would be about, erm, 50% of the population in some areas I would guess.

Taking part in a church service and worshipping god is not the same as being taught about the christian beliefs surrounding easter.

yabu to be completely horrified...what would you be if something significantly bad happened?

That aside this is a good time to express where your religious boundaries are with regard your children.
As atheists I'm sure you are happy enough to discuss and educate your children in all forms of religious and non religious activity.
This seems like a perfectly normal non eventful walk to me and I'm sure your DS learned a great deal from it.

Yes.

The DS will have learnt that the son of god came to earth to walk amongst us and spread the word of the lord.

That he died on the cross to save us from our sins.

That he rose from the dead to ascend to heaven to sit on gods right hand eternally.

This will not have been preceded by the caveat "some people believe" or "christians believe".

Nice factual day out

I would have thought it was a great opportunity to have a discussion with your DC about it-much better than dictating what he should or shouldn't be told.
It is your right to exclude him from RE and assemblies-as you haven't done this they are not likely to inform you of the nature of the Ash Wednesday activity.

"This is all based on a Victorian law section 70 and schedule 20 which was created in Victorian times"

Do tell which Victorian law, it sounds SO very important and exciting! And you seem to be quite specific about the section no! Wow -did you do your own research or did you speak to your attorney? AND - how dare people say this is a copycat thread!

Hey, maybe there's $$$ compensation going for your son's hurt feelings?

That would be
Worth
A
Try!

I don't like my ds being force-fed superstitious mumbo-jumbo under the mantle of fact either. Fucking god-botherers drive me mad.

We're trying everything we can to equip our children with the intellectual confidence and perspective to take this stuff with a pinch of salt and make up their own minds... but it's not easy, when their beloved, well-respected teachers etc are telling them "Jesus rose from the dead" with the same level of conviction that they are telling them "6 divided by 3 is 2". It's an outrageous abuse of power IMO.

I was thinking just now, that when people are forced into worship in other parts of the world we say it is appalling.

Yet when children are forced into acts of worship here we say it is a good thing.

Very odd.

As for saying they are to be excluded from religious worship activites - that's fine - but you only find out they're doing it if DC mention it. Most people would not assume that their local non faith community school were taking the children out to attend church services.

Luckily having been on MN I now know what can happen and will be able to be on the alert.

Catinthehat1

I for one am not religious, but you should be more explicit in your educational requirements. Given that you are from a jewish background and profess to no longer follow that religion, you should be open to your child being given education in other religions and therefore able to make a choice himself about what he wants to believe or not believe as he gets older. TBH I think there are a lot worse things he could be picking up from school than learning about scriptures.
Just be happy that he didn't come home and make you give up chocolate for lent in solidarity with him...I'm just waiting for that one.

The education act of 1870 has been updated! You need the one of 1998.

piscesmoon - there isn't a choice for non religious schools. In addition, the school is just not 51% some other religion. How do you know that 51% aren't possibly 'not religious' and would prefer there was no religion at all in the school. I completely respect how people want to raise their own children. why do mine have to be subjected to someone else's religion on a daily basis without another option than exclusion which potentially damages the child.

Kimi - Unfortuately, it's not a simple as that. That would mean my DS would be exclude from assembly every day and potentially made to feel different and we all know for a child that can be difficult. So each parent of a different faith or no faith at all feels caught between their beliefs and the harm it could possibly do their child by making them feel different.

It is a very difficult position to be in! Do you stand up for what you believe in and potentially harm your child or do you look the other way and have regrets later on. I feel it will be a different response for each person. My DH and I have choosen to exclude our DS with a lot of conversation with him about how we respect what others believe but we don't agree with what is taught in assembly.

It is hard for a 5 year old to understand the difference between belief, faith and fact.

He has been struggling with the contray ideas that we don't agree with what the vicar said but that he (the vicar) is not a liar because he does believe in what he is saying.....it just messy!

I wouldnt be happy at all. I wnat my ds's to learn about all religions but not taught as if any of it is factual.