to be completely horrified and insulted to see ashes on ds1's forehead?

[Foz]

my 5 year old DS1 came home from school on Ash Wednesday with ash on his forehead after his community school (not C of E) took him to Church, let the vicar give a semon to him all about Jesus/the need to pray/drinking wine is drinking the blood of Christ/stale bread is the body of Christ/Jesus dying for my son's sins/resurection/etc., then put the ash on his forehead (he did volunteer though he didn't know where he was, what they were going to do or what it meant).

Background- I was raised and practiced Jew for 30 years. Now both my husband and I are atheists. I grew up in the states where this would never be allowed within non religious schools. I fully appreciate there are many things wrong with the states but with my background I was not prepared for this.

My concerns -

1. I do not agree with collective worship in a 'broadly Christian way' that is a state requirement. It is discriminatory, insulting and unbelievable that the school should take on the role of spiritual leader for my child 5 days a week.
2. My only recourse is to exclude him which makes my son feel like something is wrong with him. How fair is that! What choice do I have?
3. Taking my son at 5 and allowing a vicar to talk to the children about Christianity without explaining faith and that this is what Christians' believe (not universal fact) is irresponsible and a form of indoctrination. This was NOT part of collective worship and how could the school not think to inform the parents before going?
4. This is all based on a Victorian law section 70 and schedule 20 which was created in Victorian times when more than 95% of the British population were practising Christians. Now less than 8% are practising - should this law still be in practice?

"you should be open to your child being given education in other religions and therefore able to make a choice himself about what he wants to believe or not believe as he gets older. TBH I think there are a lot worse things he could be picking up from school than learning about scriptures."

I for one am delighted that all that should happen. I just don't want my children actually taking part in Christian worship at school.

There is such a huge difference between LEARNING about religion and DOING religion!

Superglue

We can't things all our own way.

We want our kids to have expansive thoughtfull minds embracing cultures near and far. I assume.

But we don't actually want them to have any way of knowing what those cultures actually are? Or experiencing the more mundane close to homes ones?

It's Easter!! It seems reasonable to mention why every one has a day off work no? Sticking a bit of ash on a forehead is making a lesson interesting, real and fun. Unless you practice this religion - then it has deep meaning.

I assume if kids make small chemical explosions in chemistry they wont grow up to be bombers?

Quite a ranty post for me

Yes but how do children learn? Esp. at a young age they learn kinastetically (pls excuse poor spelling!) So I can see the vlue in touching, feelng, sensing, taking part in things rather than hearing about them, which let's face it goes in one ear then out the other at the gae of 5.

From what the OP has said, as this event was clearly not on Ash Wed, it obviousy has no sacramental element so is not worship. It is surely educative. Like it or not, religion still plays a huge role in UK life, and Christainity still means a lot to to a lot of people, and the best you can do for your dc is to help them see why.

Foz, if poss, why not volunteer to sit in on a Religious Ed lesson / visit? Then you'll pretty soon see what is really being said. Or ask the school for the vicar's details and contact her/him. If she/he's worth their salt they'll be more than happy to explain.

Would all the christians be completely happy I wonder if their children were taken to the synagogue/mosque every week to join in with the prayers and worship? To have a jewish or muslim assembly every single day with all the prayers and so on.

Probably not.

And it's the same god!

Sorry but...

I went to Catholic schools and we are always off seeing all sorts of places, taking part in any amount of muslim and Sikh and Hindu and Jewish celebrations.

Any form of generous expansive thinking was seen as beneficial and worth knowing about.

It was not a religious education lesson. It was an outing to the church for a religious ceremony. They are not the same thing.

I'd be happy for my dc to be taken to a mosque / synagogue to see what people do there and join in with the bits that don't contradict our Christian faith. The dc have made divali pots and learnt Hindu / Islamic stories at school, and I honestly am pleased that they are doing so. Every week would be a bit much though!

it wasn't a religious ceremony. ash wednesday is in february, not on the first of april.

There are some christians who would not be happy with ashes being put on their forehead or their children's. Its not something I would feel comfortable with.

I think its fine for the school to take children to church, but putting ashes on a child's forehead without parental consent is not right.

I went to a catholic school and we had an hour assumbly every morning with worship and prayers. We were closely affiliated with the church over the road and the priest took assemblies a lot, we went over there a lot.

Other religions were most certainly not mentioned. Ever.

The nuns wouldn't have been keen I suspect

Anyone who thinks that it is normal for religions to give credence to other faiths is talking out of their hat I'm afraid. They risk losing their flock. And how can something based firmly on belief and little else stand up and say that other beliefs are also true. Doesn't happen IME. More like, other people believe other things, but what we believe is right.

Not my experience at all - but we only had 1 nun. And she was in charge of handing out sanitary towels mainly.

Just because it was in a church doesn't make it a ceremony. I speak as someone who works for a Church of England church and regularly has groups of schoolkids in for special lessons which the viacr and I lead. And yes we make it as inclusive and accepting of all faiths and none as poss, whilst teaching the kids what we believe and what we do.

It's v. common round here tbh. For most of the kids it's the first time they've come into a churc and they are fascinated by all the artwork / visual stuff. None of what we do implies or demands any kind of commitment from the kids. However we are quite multisensory in our teaching approach and use music / let them touch things/ smell things etc.

I must say we've never put ashes on anyone's head though! Partly becaues we don't do that with te sundat crowd either...

The vicar gave a sermon.

The need to pray.

Blood/body of christ.

Jesus died for our sins.

I'm betting the vicar didn't say "well I'm a christian and so this is what I believe, lots of other people believe other things though, and without empirical proof who is to say who is right".

You go to church, you have a talk from a vicar, no doubt there was a prayer, that is an act of worship, not being taught about it in the context of "some people believe X".

Clockface - I would support that for my dc's. Sounds like an interesting lesson!

Telling what someone believes does not make them too believe. It's just information. And it's pretty dull information too when your 5, so making it multi sensory etc is surely good lesson planning?

Clockface x-post.

yet again we need the child in question to have taken a camcorder with them so we all knew exactly what went on!

I'd better go as my v devout catholic friend has just turned up and I need to get out of ranty religious-talk mode

It's interesting for me to read this thread.

What we do is to leave the bread and wine on the altar and deliberately don't tell the childen what they are, but let them touch / ssmell / look. Then towards the end we tell them the story of the Last supper, and break the bread and pour out the wine. We don't ddrink / eat. We tell it very much as the sstory that Christians believe. We don't pray as part of these lessons but when we visit the schools to do assemblies we do pray, although the prayers are not v. cchristian-specific (i.e any Hindu / muslim / whatever could pray them with a clear conscience) and we always invite children to opt in to the praying rather than expecting that tye will join in automatically.

I think there is a line to be walked in the UK when it comes to the teaching of RE. Maybe the Askhe on the forehead crossed that line...

We've had stuff like this, and it really irritates me too. My children went to an ordinary community school where the Headmaster happened to be buddies with the local very high anglican vicar. Cue lots of talks by said vicar, and visits to the church. None of which were given any advance warning, because the school thinks it is entirely normal to do such things (the Headmaster had been Head for donkeys years). Now I have a vicar for a sister, so I know most vicars are lovely people, but I also know they firmly think/feel that their message is incredibly important, and that they will give it with faith - not a I believe and you might be interested in type approach (and why should they?)

Cue dd coming home saying she is a Christian and with lots of rather mixed up messages. When we have reinforced our atheist "some people believe" line she stated that Father Christopher said xxx and that he was right "because he has a big house". Interestingly ds (not one to follow authority) despite the same experiences remained staunchly uninterested in god.

When the Headmaster retired the contact with the vicar totally disappeared. For community schools it is it seems to me very variable in terms of the Christian nature/assemblies etc, and as a parent you can't tell what they might consider normal/reasonable. I want my children to have exposure to other beliefs and ways of life, and as parents we make sure we talk and read about about all sorts of belief systems but I want them to be presented as alternatives and choices, not "The Truth".

Intersting chat. Must go now - talk agin some time!

Clockface- I think your approach would have been more appropriate/agreeable. I want my child to be exposed to all religions but I feel there is a line. For me, this line was crossed. Again, I am definitely NOT against RE. I think it so important for people to respect everyone views and beliefs. i am working quite hard to get my DS to understand that the vicar is NOT a liar because he believes he is telling the truth and is sincere, yet dm and dd do not agree with what the vicar believes even though he talked about like it was fact. Really difficult concepts for 5 year olds.

Nooka- How frustrating. I agree with you that it is 'fuzzy' what the RE cirriculum should be and each headmaster can somewhat control the stance of the school. I am learning this the hard way. I agree with you!

I wouldn't have been pleased at all about the ash or the lecture on the pleasures of cannibalism. It could have been worse though. If it been "learn about voodoo day" it could have been the blood of a freshly killed cockerel.

onagar- We realised today that he has freaked out a bit when he took a glass of red wine from DH and said 'daddy I don't want you to drink blood. will it make you sick?'

I think the symbolism is lost on a 5 year old.

I'm a complete non-believer but grew up with a complete CofE ethic. School assemblies, Sunday School, church every week as it was linked to the Brownies/Guides. Strangely enough I was NOT indocrinated and still made my own mind up about stuff.

Religion is part of our culture. The Bank Holiday today (and Monday) is linked to religion. It is important that children have the opportunity to experience things and ask questions. It is not for US to tell them what to believe I guess. But to explain things.

My dd is 5 and has led a totally secular existence to date. She doesn't know anything about ANYBODIES God. It's going to come up sure enough....

Foz - your 21:06 post sounds very reasonable, but to be completely horrified and insulted is unreasonable imo.