to be completely horrified and insulted to see ashes on ds1's forehead?

[Foz]

my 5 year old DS1 came home from school on Ash Wednesday with ash on his forehead after his community school (not C of E) took him to Church, let the vicar give a semon to him all about Jesus/the need to pray/drinking wine is drinking the blood of Christ/stale bread is the body of Christ/Jesus dying for my son's sins/resurection/etc., then put the ash on his forehead (he did volunteer though he didn't know where he was, what they were going to do or what it meant).

Background- I was raised and practiced Jew for 30 years. Now both my husband and I are atheists. I grew up in the states where this would never be allowed within non religious schools. I fully appreciate there are many things wrong with the states but with my background I was not prepared for this.

My concerns -

1. I do not agree with collective worship in a 'broadly Christian way' that is a state requirement. It is discriminatory, insulting and unbelievable that the school should take on the role of spiritual leader for my child 5 days a week.
2. My only recourse is to exclude him which makes my son feel like something is wrong with him. How fair is that! What choice do I have?
3. Taking my son at 5 and allowing a vicar to talk to the children about Christianity without explaining faith and that this is what Christians' believe (not universal fact) is irresponsible and a form of indoctrination. This was NOT part of collective worship and how could the school not think to inform the parents before going?
4. This is all based on a Victorian law section 70 and schedule 20 which was created in Victorian times when more than 95% of the British population were practising Christians. Now less than 8% are practising - should this law still be in practice?

The central message of Christianity is love your 'neighbour as yourself', so not like a Black Mass, Seeker!
OP's DS did volunteer to have ashes on his forehead-it wouldn't have been done if he didn't want to participate. Admittedly his mother didn't tell him that he didn't want to participate, but I'm not sure that it is any better to be so dogmatic on your DCs behalf.
From experience, I would guess that if you had a class of 30, 2 or 3 would refuse because they were too fastidious (probably girls), one would refuse because they like to be different (probably a boy), 2 or 3 would refuse because they are unsure, another 2 or 3 wouldn't be bothered either way and the rest would be clamouring to be chosen.I though it was done as an explanation of Ash Wednesday as opposed to a religious ceremony, but I haven't gone back to check.

My point is that Christians don't see any problem at all with non Christian's children participating in Christian worship at school. I just wonder what they would say if their children came home saying they had taken part in something that went against their beliefs.

One person earlier said they would not be very keen to have their child going to a Mosque/Synagogue regularly for worship, and they wouldn't be very keen for them to have a Muslim/Jewish assembly every morning.

That at least is honest.

The problem is I think that people who believe something is right absolutely cannot understand and will nto understand why anyone would have a problem with those beliefs as that is too much of a challenge. Far easier to say people with different beliefs are being difficult or ridiculous.

I think YABU to be "horrified" by it. Religion is taught in a more informational than instructional way now. In all likelihood at some point during his primary school career, he will come home with a red spot on his head, and visit a mosque and a synagogue. I think you are totally overreacting. And I'm an atheist.

As an aside, a (devoutly Muslim) friend has always said she would far rather her children attended a frankly Christian school than an atheistic one, as she felt they would share more of the same values.

So it's not ok generally, but only because the particular religion being pushed is one that's acceptable to you. Can you not see how one sided that is? You should be equally happy if it were a black mass.

The central message of lots of religions is to value other people and treat them with respect etc.

I feel it is unlikely that many christains would be happy to send their children to schools of those faiths where regular worship was occuring.

I know people who have ended up having to send their children to schools of different faiths because that is all that is available locally. It is a very difficult decision for people to make and many feel uncomfortable about it.

If faith schools are the way forward then maybe each area should have schools of faiths based on the proportions of those people in the community.

Then we would end up with a good mix of different faith schools, and schools with no faith aspect as well.

That wold be fairer than expecting thousands of people to sideline and bend their beliefs in order to get their children schooled in this country.

It would not be practical for every non christian family in the country to remove their children from mainstream schooling, and surely wouldn't be desirable, so is it really too much to ask that given the different faiths and beliefs of families, that christianity is not rammed down the throats of some children in so called non denominational community schools.

Shambolic- I agree about the choice of the words "mumbo jumbo" but it was late and I couldn't think of any other way of describing it!
Also agree that your point of view does affect how you teach something. One of my university lecturers stated quite clearly that he was left wing and this would colour the way in which he taught such topics as the miners strike etc etc. Obviously it is very different for 5 year olds, but if you visit any place of worship then you are going to expect to be spoken to/lectured on in those terms.

My kids have been to various places of worship through school, my oh and I did object to the fact that on a scorching hot day my dd had to cover her head and wear trousers under her school summer dress. She also had to wear her woolly cardi to cover her arms and it was unbelieveably hot. The boys were laughing and making comments as they were free to wear shorts and leave their arms bare.
I didn't stop her from going, but made it quite clear that in our home girls are valued just as much as boys and that it will never be part of our life to discriminate as such.

(Runs off to hide now)

Of course there is no reason why I should be happy with a Black Mass-I am not happy with the core values. I would be happy with any of the main religions-they have a lot in common. I can't see much difference in 10 Commandments of Christianity and Judaism, 5 pillars of Islam or 8 noble truths of Buddhism. Religion isn't the problem-it is what mankind does with it that is to blame.
If my DSs vistited a synagogue, mosque etc I would be quite happy if they found out what it was all about and would expect them to follow the rules (take off shoes etc).I doubt very much whether it would lead to them becoming an ardent follow of the religion.

I wouldn't be happy in them exploring any cults of fanatical sects-but main stream religions with a central theme of helping fellow man, and toleration and understanding for all, wouldn't be a problem.I think everyone needs a spirirtual side and a moral code-whether or not it comes from a belief in a god.

Would you be happy for your DC to have a muslim assembly every morning pisces? And to be taken to the mosque to worship on important dates in the muslim calendar?

Serious question.

Sorry cults or (not of) fanatical sects.

If they went to live in Pakistan and went to a local school, Shambolic, then yes, but we would discuss it a lot at home. As it isn't the culture of this country I would only expect it to be an occasional thing. We have a cultural history of Christianity in UK. If we lived in Israel I would expect them to be taught from a Jewish view point.
When in Rome.......

There are lots of muslim schools in the UK, if that was your local school and a good school would you still be happy?

This whole christain worship being the norm in this country isn't quite right either, people have a broadly christian idea of how to live - the cutural aspect - but not that many people actually worship.

Not sure I would be happy sending my DD to school in certain parts of pakistan either but that's another issue.

I must admit I prefer the system here in Belgium, a predominantly Catholic country. There are Catholic schools but the state schools are secular. Each child is given a choice to follow RE according to their own wishes eg Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Judaism or there is the option to take "Morals" instead.

I have no clue yet whether they discuss other religions in any/all of those classes. I hope so. My dd certainly mixes with children of different religions but at the maternelle level the only "holidays" they celebrate are the traditional local ones ie St Nicolas, Easter, May Day. And not in a religious sense.

To OP:

the head of state is also the head of church here so these things no matter how archaic and impractical it is, is the way of this world and there is very little to be done to change things till we become a republic.

therefore

vive la republique!

BTW, there are many more archaic laws than this one still on the books so I doubt there will be an upswell to change much soon.

BTW, Why wait till Good Friday to post something that happened about 47 days ago?

Just curious.

Piscesmoon, that's my point. It's ok with you if they have my children do things that I don't agree with as long as it's something that YOU agree with. It has to measure up to Your personal standard of morality, but if it doesn't measure up to mine you will say the school has the right to have them do it anyway.

I wouldn't send them to a Muslim school in this country, even in the unlikely event that it was the only school, I would travel. If I was very anti church schools I would do the same if it was a church school.
I am not likely to live in Pakistan and if I did I expect there are international schools. However, if I did I wouldn't expect them to make my DC a special case, he would just be aware that they were not the views at home and we would be able to have some very interesting discussions.
I was very impressed with a parent a while ago who started by HEing her DS because she was living abroad but he was thoroughly miserable, he wanted to be at school, so she sent him to the local, Russian speaking school and he now speaks fluent Russian and is very happy-I expect he has some interesting views-I think it can be a very positive experience.
Our whole history in UK is Christian, if you want to find an ancestors birth pre 1837 you will have to look in the parish registers. If you live in a village, local government will be through your parish council. If you go to the National Gallery you will need knowledge of the Bible to understand many of the paintings, especially pre 17th Century. It permeates everything-Islam or Hinduism do not.
There is very often nothing to take the place of the church, for example in times of trauma. A while ago a local teenager was murdered. My DS said that there was going to be a special service in the local church (this was before the post mortem and funeral)and he wanted to go. I decided to go with him, I picked up my older DS from the station and assumed that he wouldn't want to go (he is very outspoken in his atheist views)but to my surprise he said that he wanted to go. The parents of the boy were there, they were not church goers, and it was very moving-mainly a time of reflection.Everyone found it helpful, particularly the parents who were touched by so many young people being there. There was standing room only. Some other body could have done it but the point is that no other body does do it. The church also will help anyone and don't expect them to 'convert'.
I think they get a hard time-they are essentially for good. Saying that I should equally embrace a Black Mass when it is devil worship and stands for wickedness is missing something.

I should say that they DS who wanted t go never sets foot in a church normally-neither did 99% of those there-it filled a need that no one else fills.

Sorry written in haste! My DS who wanted to go.

Onagar-if you don't like it you need to campaign to get a change to the 1998 education act-join the secular society-they are trying to change it.here. The problem is that although people moan they don't do anything.If everyone complained, changes would have to be made-while it is a tiny minority nothing will change.(I think it will eventually but not for a long time)

Sorry but YOU are responsible for your child..if you don't want them to take part and take the consequences of taking part then inform the school..I have and if they are not sure that i would be happy for my DDs to take part they call me...tis simple

Agree about changing it with political pressure, but I'm talking specifically about what you said you see. You talk as though we should accept it yet would object to a black mass (for example). If I see christianity in the way you see a black mass isn't my opinion as good as yours?

You know the worst thing a child could pick up from a school with a religious bias is this one sided view of things.

Mumcentreplus, the school didn't ask. Some schools do and some don't because they know it's the one true religion and no decent person would object.

But pisces in this country you can't travel to a suitable school if you are not religious as schools are all religious even the non faith ones.

All schools have a duty to have some daily worship which is broadly christian, and some schools take this further than others.

Do you think that all people who are not christian should have to pay to have their children privately educated if there is no school around which agrees with their way of thinking?

Or should people of all other faiths, beliefs and religions suck it up and be happy that their children are taught to worship christ, say our father by rote, and that jesus died for our sins?

Why can't we have secular schools where children simply learn about religions and beliefs of all different types without being expected to actively worship any one of them. If a family believe the place for the child to receive that instruction is at home and in their place of worship.

What is actually wrong with that idea?