to be completely horrified and insulted to see ashes on ds1's forehead?

[Foz]

my 5 year old DS1 came home from school on Ash Wednesday with ash on his forehead after his community school (not C of E) took him to Church, let the vicar give a semon to him all about Jesus/the need to pray/drinking wine is drinking the blood of Christ/stale bread is the body of Christ/Jesus dying for my son's sins/resurection/etc., then put the ash on his forehead (he did volunteer though he didn't know where he was, what they were going to do or what it meant).

Background- I was raised and practiced Jew for 30 years. Now both my husband and I are atheists. I grew up in the states where this would never be allowed within non religious schools. I fully appreciate there are many things wrong with the states but with my background I was not prepared for this.

My concerns -

1. I do not agree with collective worship in a 'broadly Christian way' that is a state requirement. It is discriminatory, insulting and unbelievable that the school should take on the role of spiritual leader for my child 5 days a week.
2. My only recourse is to exclude him which makes my son feel like something is wrong with him. How fair is that! What choice do I have?
3. Taking my son at 5 and allowing a vicar to talk to the children about Christianity without explaining faith and that this is what Christians' believe (not universal fact) is irresponsible and a form of indoctrination. This was NOT part of collective worship and how could the school not think to inform the parents before going?
4. This is all based on a Victorian law section 70 and schedule 20 which was created in Victorian times when more than 95% of the British population were practising Christians. Now less than 8% are practising - should this law still be in practice?

then i must be indecent.....what I'm trying to say is if you have strong objections to religion or elements of religious teaching..ie you would be horrified...then take charge..I spoke to my school before anything happened...if they are not sure they call me...

You can travel to a non faith school-I agree that you can't escape the broadly Christian part, but I actually like it. Since my DSs won't go to church I like them to get a grounding at school.
We keep going around in circles on that one-they won't be secular until the church and state are separate.
Because it is the law you can remove your DC from assembly and RE, since OP hadn't done that there was no need to consult her on Ash Wednesday.
I agree with Riven -all you atheists who went to school in this country (unless you had an atheist Head who bent the rules and got away with it) had your full share of hymns, prayers, Bible stories, nativity plays, making Easter cards etc and you turned out atheists.
I find children fascinating to talk to, they have all sorts of deep thinking about all sorts of philosophical questions. They are not empty vessels to be filled-they are quite capable of making up their own minds-they are certainly not stupid. I would use the experiences to have interesting discussions about what they think. It gets very sad when it boils down to a worry that they will believe whatever a vicar tells them or that "Mummy says I don't believe in God". Of course children 'catch' God a bit at 5yrs if they haven't come across it-but it is a phase, it doesn't last.

Sigh....

It's just that when you think it's an absolute load of nonsense, it's hard to think "oh well they probably won't get indoctrinated anyway".

To remove children from assembly is a pretty harsh thing to have to do to a child, simply because you don't believe in divine all-powerful entities.

Of course people who are christian have no trouble with the status quo.

As for the rest - yes I went to a very religious school, and am now virulently anti-religion in all its forms. I hate it. How is that a good result? Surely it would have been better to have left me alone, then if I was a spiritual type I could have come to it on my own, if not I wouldn't be so fussed about it all.

As it is I have to spend half my life feeling angry, resentful, that I am having to compromise my beliefs to support my other beliefs and genuinely having a really bad time with it all.

Maybe that is my punishment for not being a decent god-fearing type.

I think it is a bit like sweets-forbid them and children want them. Making a big deal out of ashes on the forehead makes it much more exciting, rather than fairly boring. It was pushed down your throat, Shambolic, so you are very anti, I think a lot of people are similar, so on the whole it works the opposite to how it is supposed to!
It goes completely over the heads of a lot of DCs and the parents aren't even aware that they go to an assembly with worship. I can't say that my DSs have ever told me a single detail about an assembly and if asked outright-claimed to have forgotten so it hasn't made a great impression, and certainly not a lasting one.
I think that it ought to be made clear to the parents when they start school and then they wouldn't be under the impression that their DC was at a secular school.
Private education doesn't escape-many have a Christian ethos, even if not church schools.
If it is important to you, you need to ask questions before they go-for example in a State schol the Head will try and find ways around it if they are an atheist themselves-something to ask when choosing.

Very true pisces.

I can only speak of my own experience of going from a covent primary school to a private secondary - at my secondary they certianly didn't do religion in the main assembly. Every Friday there was a separate jewish assumby run by 6th formers - but everyone was welcome to go along. It was good to have that kind of choice. My primary school was quite full-on.

Your idea of schools making it clear that they are not secular is a very good one. Many many people assume (wrongly) that the community schools are secular, assume there will be no religious worship and understandably get miffed when they find out through their DC that there is. It would be very useful if the schools were upfront about it rather than people having to think to ask.

It also seems to be that primary schools are in the main quite religious while secondary are more secular (apart from the faith ones obviously) - is that true? (DD nowhere near that age yet!) If so, why?

Secondary schools can get away with saying that they haven't the room for a whole school assembly. Once they have got away from the whole school, once a day thing it is easier to hide the fact you aren't doing it-at least that is my theory. I ought to know what happens at my DSs secondary-very remiss of me as he is now 6th form and I don't know! I know they have them on school matters like exam revision-I don't think God comes into it. I only know what happens at the primary schools because I supply teach.
I think people on these threads make a big deal out of things that are not even worth a mention to the DCs.

the inexperienced cynic in me would suggest it's because the major festivals supply no end of craft inspiration for the young and armed with curvy scissors.

In this country you can't avoid the religious festivals, even if you are an atheist e.g there was no post yesterday because it was a Bank Holiday-it was a Bank Holiday because Good Friday is a major day in the Christian calendar.
My husband works for a mainly Jewish company-they close for Christian holidays because everywhere else is closed and they couldn't do business if they went to work! (they actually get the best of both worlds as they do Hannukkah etc and have a special time at Christmas).
Sainsburys will close for Christmas-they won't close for Eid.
Schools reflect the fact that we are a Christian country, if only by tradition.

treedelivery.

And maybe older children ask too many tricky questions...

Do they still do harvest fesival, where mum has to put some tins in a mushroom box decorated with crepe paper?

I can understand why you feel peeved but i can't understand why your ds would get ashes on his forehead on the 1st April, this only happens once a year at the beginning of Lent, this year on 25th Feb. So sorry, something just does not ring true.

bizarre behaviour by vicar if true...

Interesting question sooty, not sure if you meant to come across as aggressive but it's so hard to read tone on these boards.

I don't think that people of any religion expect people of different beliefs to join in the worshipping aspect of these types of ceremonies.

A hindu would not expect a christian to learn all the words to their prayers and recite them at eg a wedding, a christian would not expect a jew to join in with the responses at a funeral.

Each belief is entitled to the respect of others when celebrating/mourning together. At catholic christenings I sit quietly and listen but I don't join in with the prayers.

When it comes to children, if they are there with a parent, the parent will have been able to prime the child about the occasion. The child is unlikely to join in with the worship as they won't know the correct words and so on.

Totally different to children worshipping something the parents don't believe in at school, where the parents are not there and are often not aware that it is going on in the first place.

Shambolic- You beat me to it. Totally agree, well said.

I think that's the thing though sooty - seeing how other people worship and doing it yourself are such different things but they seem to get confused on these threads.

All for DD going along to the big ceremonies - they are an important part of life and mark the passing of time etc. People do have various faiths and it is important to understand the basic beliefs and treat them with respect (if they are beliefs which deserve respect).

All against her being taught to say the lord's prayer every morning at a non faith community school (as was happening on another recent thread - of course the parent had no idea that it was going on until the DC let slip).

It's yet another topic which polarises opinion here on MN, and it's one I get worked up about because I have just started looking at schools for DD and have realised to my horror that they are all blimmin faith schools...

At things like weddings, funerals and so on, like I said.

Most people end up being exposed to religious ceremonies as a part of their ordinary life.

Many people just don't expect the worshipping to be occurring in non faith schools.

its a chritian country. But they should get broad education. feel sure they will learn about muslim, hindi, jewish stuff.
I think you are making religion a big issue which makes for problems later. He's 5 and probably had a nice time. Do you object to nativity plays too???

I think it is much better to expose them when they are young-especially as it seems to put most people off! I think that many of the 'born again' evangelical type Christians, are those who came to it later in life.

Your DCs are young, by the time they are teens, 20's they may well react against your views. There was an interesting article in the Times magazine the other weekend. It took the DCs of very hippy 60's parents (who had reacted against their parents)they had had unstructured life in the country, no set bedtimes, home schooling(or school not important),parents who were friends etc and the ones interviewed had gone the opposite (like Saffy in AbFab), they seemed to get on with their parents but they viewed them as children-they wanted structure, they were working hard in jobs and paying for private education and saw the grandparents as giving stability when they were young.(I expect they could have found those who agreed totally with the parents if they had wanted to-however you have no idea what sort you have, as yet)

I think that preventing DCs from taking part and being dogmatic as in "Mummy says there is no God, therefore there isn't", may get you the opposite of what you intend.

Letting them get bored rigid in collective worship is probably the better option!!

It's definitely a point - I certainly don't like religion or art galleries due to over-exposure when young. John Lewis has grown on me

The thing is, that for many the idea of participating in worship is as "offensive" for want of a better word as eg a veggie being told that their children will be fed meat every day at school. It's an important belief and to say "oh well they probably won't like it anyway" is kind of missing the point.

I think it is fundamentally difficult for those who believe in deities to begin to understand just how odd and wrong it is to those who don't.

DH says it doesn't bother lots of people as they aren't really sure one way or the other, and so a bit of god can't do any harm.

My view is that my not believing is as devout, if you like, as a truly religious persons belief.

An example would be, that I would find it as distressing if someone told DD that when you die you go to heaven, as a christian would be if I told their DC that when you die you don't go to heaven.

I know that people like my DH see it as all harmless, and there probably is a greater power, so what does it matter. It matters to me because it fundamentally goes against what I believe in. And religious people, of all people, should understand that

You could turn that entire post around Sooty, to express exactly how I feel.

If I asked a religious person, "But who really knows if there is a God? There might not be? Have you considered the possibility that you may be totally wrong?" etc.

I am not against the christain message, or the message of any other reasonable belief system, it's the worshipping bit. And of course that's kind of the whole point of religion.

DH just got in and I was talking to him about this. I said that the idea of going to a nice building once a week, with others in the community of all ages, to have a story about peace and love and being nice to each other, and a bit of a sing, sounds like a lovely idea.

It just all falls down when you have to do the bit about praying to and worshipping a god or gods. That's not something you can just "go along with" IMO.

I also believe that people who do not adhere to religious beliefs are more than capable of having a strong moral framework and living by "good rules".