to tell DS1 that he either eats his dinner cold or not at all????

[FAQinglovely]

He was actually given it nearly 1/2hr ago. He was silly about the fact that DS2 sat on "his" seat, so I asked him to go and sit on the bottom step. He refused, and what followed is barely repeatable, suffice to say, he tried to throw his booster cushion (for the car) at me, and is now banned from a multitude of "special" (to him) things for 2 months (started off a month, but after some deliberate repeated door slamming and a warning I'd add time on before he did it I added the extra month).

Anyhow, he's now calmed down enough to eat his dinner (beans on toast) and naturally after 1/2h its stone cold.

If he'd have done as he was told to start with his food would still have been hot -but his behaviour tonight was the worst I've ever seen it so it's ended up a much longer period of time before he's gone back to it.

He's 8.5 btw - so AIBU to tell him that he can eat it cold or not at all??

could the main meal be earlier say 5pm or even 4.30? then snack later on?

can't move the meal forward because DS2 and 3 (3 in particular) aren't as hungry at 4pm (probably because they eat their lunches ) at that time, plus it's the time issue, as well as DS3 being at that horrible age (22 months) where messing around with his eating schedule is likely to land me with an extra tantruming child - one is quite enough to cope with thank you very much PMSL).

If this were me I would start to keep a diary of his sleep pattern. I also think you sleeping on the sofa could play a part in this - is he coming down to see if you are there or not?

If you have a waking time for him ater doing the sleep diary (say 3am) then go and rouse him a bit at 2am...this will alter the sleep pattern and help get him out of the routine.

My DD isn't a big drinker so I ensure she drinks a beaker at least in the evening, I make sure she does this as part of her routine.

Don't underestimate the fallout from you seperating and moving house and then getting back together with his dad again after you both had other relationships - he's only 8 and doesn't have the emotional maturity to cope with things like this. Perhaps he's anxious about another move or you separating from his father again. He may not articulate that but the feelings could well be there.

2mths is waaaaaaaaaaay too long for a punishment - whether he 'gets' the concept is really irrelevant because in a temper he's not thinking straight so the length or type of punishment makes no odds.

Instead of arguing with him (and forgive me but you do sound a tad stubborn at times) you could try to be proactive rather than reactive with your parenting. If you know he has had little sleep and not eaten his lunch you could perhaps give him a snack and encourage a relaxing activity.

FAQ It takes minutes to make beans on toast, or a whole load of other meals for that matter.

You seem to be dismissing all suggestions on here for no real reason, why not try earlier dinner, why not try the radio idea, why not buy a cheap alarm for yourself/ etc etc etc

DIttany - I agree that is the ideal situation - and it sounds as though that is fine when he goes to bed - but he needs someway of getting out of the routine he is in and something that encourages him to a) stay in his room, ideally b) stay in (or go back to) bed and eventually c) go back to sleep! I don't know whether the radio and/or cd/mp3 player would work - but FAQ clearly needs to try something to help him.

What other things are suitable that could help to encourage him to stay in bed at that time in the morning? I know at this age that if I woke up early I read secretly without my parents knowing (I think) - but books were much to interesting to drop off during at that age.

well yes I suppose I do come across as "stubborn" - but I guess that's what happens when you've spent 5 or 6yrs trying differening techniques and advice to no great effect and then when someone suggests something that you've previously given a blooody good go of and I turn it down - I guess it makes me stubborn.

Can I just say again that the behaviour problems stem from YEARS before our marriage hit the rocks

It may well take "minutes" to make a whole range of other meals, but those "minutes" are what I frequently don't have at that time of day

If you read you'll see that I've passworded the computer (and now set the screensaver to come on after a period of inactivity to so that the password protecting actually works ).

And as dittany says I didn't dismiss the radio idea, nor did I dismiss the advice to go to the GP's about his sleeping, or the advice about trying not to ask questions, but making "statements" (kind of slow progress on that one - only took 5 (spaced out) attempts at it to take the letters out of his book bag - but hey it's a start).

The majority of ideas I have dismissed are ones that I've tried before. This isn't new, it's been going on for years and after years of trying differing things over extended periods of time (I believe) you can safely say they're not going to work by trying them again.

Instead I'm going to take some of the new advice and suggestions made on here and use them.

dittany - the no sweets thing has been a long standing thing, same happens to DS2 until certain circumstances too. They both no that if I say no I mean no. And they don't always get things such as sweets or treats juust because someone else is - they know how it works and rarely disagree - that's why he only tried to get arsey LOL.

oh and he used to come downstairs when I slept (well lay more often that not) in bed every single night so don't think he's coming down to find me. He never comes down in the early part of the evening to see what I'm up to (I'm too boring when I'm MNing, ironing and studying LOL).

and actually since I replied to your sweets post DS2 asked if they could finish the sweets off as they'd had their dinner and desert, I said yes and DS1 has just split the last few between the 3 of them - (yes sweets twice in a day )

What does he eat when he gets in from school? Does he just have fruit or a biscuit - its just as you say if he's not really eaten since breakfast its a long time till 6pm and dinner.

I know the after school time is a rush with dinner to get ready and homework to be done but i would prioritise a good snack for him at this time. Get him up to the table and his blood sugars up.

Have you always been a bad sleeper?

Well I personally would do a sleep diary and look for patterns and then try to change them.

I would also leave clean sheets etc in his room so he can change his own bed if this is the cause of the waking.

If I heard him wandering I would be out of my room like a shot to get him back into his.

I would work on him staying in his room all night and then work on the sleeping through when he had done that.

I would stop getting into arguments about silly things and pick my battles

FAQ - let us know what you try and it if helps - sounds as though some of the rest of us might find it useful knowledge!

But don't expect anything to work immediately - its clearly a long-term learned habit and its going to be difficult to break.

In terms of your sleeping, I find accupuncture can sometimes help to get me out of a period of insomnia. Mind you, I sometimes end up on the sofa at about 3 or 4 am with a pot of tea - quite often find myself just about ready to go back to sleep at getting up time

it varies tracey tbh depending on what I've got in, quite often he'll have a sandwich or toast and some fruit, and maybe a couple of biscuits afterwards. Sometimes it'll just be fruit, or just the sandwich.

Thing is I'm not always home until 4.30-5ish, sometimes later depending on what after school activity i'm picking which child up from/whether I need to go to the shop on the way home, other stuff that I do. 4 is the absolute earliest I'll be home if we come straight from end of school time. And whatever I make DS1, DS2 and 3 also want (but usually don't finish).

My sleep has been messed up since I spent 2yrs working night shifts, that weren't on a "set rota - some weeks I would do 3 in a row, some 1 night on, 1 night off, 1 night on etc etc, sometimes 1 on, 1 off, 2 on, often did up to 5 nights a week as well.

DS2 stopped napping during the day while I was working there and that meant that I would frequently either get no sleep after my night shift (after having got up at 8am the previous day) or only 2 or 3).

I will try a sleep diary - but if he gets up early and is really quiet then I only have his word as to what time he got up.

The sheets are all in his room as that's where the linen cupboard is - he has a full cupboard to choose from.

It's easy to say you'd be up like a shot, but please bare in mind that when my sleep is so erratic and I've only managed to get to sleep at 2/3/4am and I hear him moving around it takes all my effort just to open my eyes enough to see what the time is, let alone get up, get him back into bed and then spend the rest of the night awake. Obviously if one of the DS's is upset and needs me I get up - but that's guaranteed that I'm up for the rest of the night.

Then I'm even more tired and find it even harder to cope with tantrums from toddlers and 8yr olds.

I do try and pick my battles

I really feel for you on the sleep deprivation front. I've got one at school and a 15 month old and am pregnant and lack of sleep makes me so grumpy and i totally lose perspective.

I find with ds1 who also gets very grumpy when hungry/thirsty and is a very early riser that a snack/drink straight after school - in the car or when walking helps.

I do wonder how many of our sleep patterns are inherited - both mine wake early - we're lucky to get to 6am but i was also apparently an early riser.

so if they all accept that sweets are only given when you say so then why can't they accept that ds1 needs a bigger snack when he gets in? show him how to make a few simple things for himself so no hassle to you.

I don't think they're inherited - DH and I used to go to bed around 11pm and I used to sleep on average 8-10hrs a night ! And we still had that pattern until DS1 was born (and threw us both into a sleep deprived whirldwind by not sleeping at all LOL.

My awful sleeping only started in late 2005 when I started working,

well when I say "all" I mean DS1 and 2 - DS3 is still non-negotiable LOL.

Night shifts have a lot to answer for - was reading an article last week about how bad they are for your health.

My niece who is nearly 17 has always had a strong personality and has really put my sister through hell with her attitude and behaviour. She like you though focused on a few battles at a time which i think is the right approach.

You can't be telling them off the whole time.

Good luck

tracey you know my best friend in RL has 5 children, 22,20,18,9 and 4. Her 20yr old was apparenlty a complete nightmare as a child (and isn't much better now she's just turned 20). She had exactly the same upbringing as the other 2 older children, and is treated the same as all of the siblings.

Maybe I sort of need to accept that he's going to be my "off the rails" child and try damage limitation rather than curbing it all (disclaimer - this is idle speculation - I wouldn't do that as I'm acutely aware of the "stereptype" boxes he ticks)

What about, after the little ones are in bed - he has his bath and you and he have a cup of valerian herbal tea (his quite weak obviously)? I know it makes me quite sleepy - would also give you some time just the two of you. Maybe a small snack or something then as well. You could really push it to him as a "grown up" time just the two of you. He sounds really anxious and worried about you to me.

Also if he is wetting that much and it is so stressful for you both why not just use the larger size pullups? I see they go to 15yrs so you can't be the only one with this problem and as feeling wet is only upsetting him and not helping the problem you might as well avoid it.

You must be out of your mind with lack of sleep, I know I am mental on anything less than 8 hours and quite grumpy on less than 9!

Lavender oil in the bath etc. It sounds naff (and probably is) but worth trying I reckon.