To expect our parents to BUTT OUT??!!

[LavenderStar]

DP is Jewish but I am not. It has never been a problem, he was brought up in the faith but it isn't a big part of his life now, although he doesn't eat pork or shellfish. His parents are more religious, don't mix meat and milk, go to synagogue etc. but don't have any problem with the way he chooses to live his life now or with me.

Anyway I am 25 weeks and if we have a boy we decided to have him circumcised. It was never a big discussion between us, I actually prefer it (I think it looks nicer and somehow it seems more hygenic) and DP I think wants to do it more as a traditional thing than anything else and obviously every other man in his family has had it done. I think his parents might go so far as to get upset if we didn't although I don't know. But frankly it is nothing to do with his parents.

Anyway so my mother phones up today even though she knows we are going on holiday tomorrow and have a million and one things to do at home and at work, and I told my dad I would speak to her when I got back. Obviously though what she wanted to do was more important and she told me that she was phoning as something had been "bothering" her. She thinks circumcision is "an unecessary procedure" (to put a baby/child under anesthetic) and potentially dangerous (eg they could cut too much off). I actually don't know much about it but we would have it done in a hospital and I am sure it would be fine in this day and age. I am not sure what it has got to do with her anyway.

My parents don't have a religion and have always been very supportive of whatever I have wanted to do in life. I am not sure if she has started interfering now because I am pregnant or because it is actually something we need to consider more thoroughly. What does everyone think?

Also now I just think it will cause a problem between the families whatever we decide to do and everyone has always got on really well. I don't know why parents think they have the right to shove their opinions down our throat, it makes me really angry. DP's mother is already slightly neurotic and we already have to "manage" her, so I could really do without this, I feel like telling them BOTH to f* off!!

Or is it just my hormones?

I am often accused of having no respect for religion and guess what: I Don't. I certainly wouldn't hold back from telling anyone who plans to cut their child's genitals (or remove their little toe, or one earlobe, or stretch their necks, or slit their tongues or perform any permanent damage to their bodies) in the name of superstition that actually they are a fucking barbarian and should be prosecuted for child abuse if they go ahead.
If adults want to cut bits off themselves, or have tattoos or body piercings or plastic surgery, that's their choice, but cutting bits off newborns is disgusting and should be illegal. Fuck culture and tradition when it comes to mutilating children.

Oh and I don;t like pierced ears on babies either, that's barbaric and moronic as well.

alicet - this is a bit of an aside question actually, but im genuinely interested. I would have thought it more sensitive sexually withOUT a foreskin? why is it less so? just wondering.

SGB, a bit off topic, but is it considered racist to use the term 'barbarian'? I would like to refer to things as 'barbarous' sometimes, but am not sure if it is offensive, so don't.

It is less so because the foreskin keeps the glans moist and protected. When it is removed, it dries up and the skin becomes toughened.

Do hospitals really do circumcisions just because you've asked for it these days, I would have thought it would fall under optional cosmetic surgery and if you want it you pay for it when you are 18 years old.

Im interested by my own response to this actually - my feelings being, well its a jewish thing, im not a jew so i respect their choice and so long as its done properly......but im vehemently against female circumcision. So i guess i should be anti male too. Its just not for me to decide i suppose - not sure what i would do if i were you OP, but you seem to be really sensible about it. Don't get cross with your mum, i suspect you are because you already have your own reservations and she has made you think about it??

Oh thanks thunderduck - thats not great is it.

I can't believe all these people getting up on their high horses about male circumcision! I've never met a circumcised man who has complained about it .
It's hardly comparable to female circumcision. In fact, it is in NO WAY comparable, asd anyone who has any knowledge of female circumcision will testify to this.

Personally, if I was married to a man who came from a culture where it was important, I'd go with it. I am a feminist of the most aggro persuasion , but I do believe that it should be the decision of the father. There is something incredibly personal to a man about this issue, and I can totally see why it might be important to a man - whether for religious or cultural reasons or whatever - that his son be circumcised (or not, as the case may be).

Also, the ear piercing debate - please don't go there. people who scream 'barbaric' about a couple of gold studs in a small child know nothing of real pain and torture

Think thunderduck is right. The exposed glans becomes desensitised as a result of being permanently exposed to fabric and the elements. Whereas the protected glans is more sensitive to stimulation because is usually covered apart from when penis is erect. I think.

Wish I hadn't googled circumcision board. All I can say having looked, is bloody hell.

MillyR: I don't think so and my intention was not to single out any particular ethnic group anyway (hence using an array of examples).

I don't think that it should be the decision of the father. I think a baby has two parents and if it came to a disagreement then the one arguing against cutting off part of the baby's anatomy should win.

not for the faint hearted

It seems to me you are wanting your family to butt out but allowing your DH's family to influence your decision.

LEMAGAIN - my views on the subject have been shaped hugely by a couple of my male friends who are furious about their circumcision, who view it as mutilation and consider it has had a highly negative impact on their sex lives. I know other circumcised men who don't feel like that but that reaction has made me think about the subject quite seriously. And the fact that none of the Jewish men I know who have been circumcised have had a Bris for their sons is quite interesting too.

Erm... I'm going to be the only one going against the grain here I suspect! I'm muslim and DH is muslim, and we would certainly circumcise our son if we had one in the future. I do think a lot of the comments on here have been unhelpful and unkind, however I do agree you should research the matter more before you make your decision.

All the male members of my husband's family have been circumcised without error, and in fact my brother and father (non muslim) were both circumcised due to medical reasons as children. Huge percentages of baby boys born across the globe every year are circumcised without a problem. However, these statistics mean nothing if you, God forbid, happen to be the parent of a child who is harmed (or that child yourself).

For this reason, I think you should research it a lot more, and if you decide it is what you want to do, research an excellent private doctor who will perform it for you. Basically, you have to weigh up the benefits against the risks, and see where that leads you- for me and my family personally, it would be important for us to have our sons circumcised and I don't really see it as optional. However if neither you nor your husband are particularly religious, you may wish to wait and let the child make a decision himslf as he grows up. Either way- it's your choice as parents. FWIW I don't think my parents would be overjoyed either (have never discussed it with them) but I would need to sit down and explin to them exactly why I felt it was important, and hope they would understand. They are entitled to an opinion but not the ultimate say.

If you down on that page "comfortable" is not a word I'd use to describe that newborns expression.

As for worse torture happening in the world, well yes it does but that hardly makes it right does it ?
I cannot control the whole world but I can make my child's life torture free

i don't think either the father or the mother should be allowed to have bits cut off their baby unless its medically essential.

which is essentially what circumcision is.

and a physical assault is defined by an assault on a person "without their consent". So IMO this constitutes an assault, as the child is too young to make any consent.

each to their own opinion however, as is essential in good debate.

OP - you might find this interesting

www.circumstitions.com/Jewish.html

I for one, have learnt alot on this thread.

Mrs Mattie

I will continue to get up on my high horse about circumcision every time someone mentions it until the day that it is made illegal. Parents should not have a choice in this any more than they should have the choice to dock their newborn's ears.

Well actually male circumcision can be compared with at least one form of female circumcision, when the clitoral hood is removed and that alone, the clitoral hood can be compared with the foreskin.

Female circumcision isn't right either of course, but it doesn't always involve the complete removal of labia, clitoris and sewing up afterwards.

I am going to bow out of this discussion now. Have tried to ask nicely for people to respond in a constructive manner. I won't bother posting on Mumsnet again - up until now I have found it a great source of comfort, but am now in tears about the way in which everyone has spoken to me.

I don't see why the man should make the decision either. Yes he has a penis like his son, but more than likely he was circumcised at a young age and therefore has little to no experience of having a foreskin.

For once I am glad that a poster has been reduced to tears; a few hard words are less than the punishment than you are contemplating for your newborn baby.

I'm sorry you're upset but I quote
'' Note: This topic, as you might guess from its title, encourages posters to take sides. This means that posters tend to express their opinions. If you don't want to read posts from people who might strongly disagree with you, you might prefer to post in a different topic area on our site''

news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/newsbeat/newsid_7961000/7961224.stm

Maybe he was circumcised and is not happy about it