To expect our parents to BUTT OUT??!!

[LavenderStar]

DP is Jewish but I am not. It has never been a problem, he was brought up in the faith but it isn't a big part of his life now, although he doesn't eat pork or shellfish. His parents are more religious, don't mix meat and milk, go to synagogue etc. but don't have any problem with the way he chooses to live his life now or with me.

Anyway I am 25 weeks and if we have a boy we decided to have him circumcised. It was never a big discussion between us, I actually prefer it (I think it looks nicer and somehow it seems more hygenic) and DP I think wants to do it more as a traditional thing than anything else and obviously every other man in his family has had it done. I think his parents might go so far as to get upset if we didn't although I don't know. But frankly it is nothing to do with his parents.

Anyway so my mother phones up today even though she knows we are going on holiday tomorrow and have a million and one things to do at home and at work, and I told my dad I would speak to her when I got back. Obviously though what she wanted to do was more important and she told me that she was phoning as something had been "bothering" her. She thinks circumcision is "an unecessary procedure" (to put a baby/child under anesthetic) and potentially dangerous (eg they could cut too much off). I actually don't know much about it but we would have it done in a hospital and I am sure it would be fine in this day and age. I am not sure what it has got to do with her anyway.

My parents don't have a religion and have always been very supportive of whatever I have wanted to do in life. I am not sure if she has started interfering now because I am pregnant or because it is actually something we need to consider more thoroughly. What does everyone think?

Also now I just think it will cause a problem between the families whatever we decide to do and everyone has always got on really well. I don't know why parents think they have the right to shove their opinions down our throat, it makes me really angry. DP's mother is already slightly neurotic and we already have to "manage" her, so I could really do without this, I feel like telling them BOTH to f* off!!

Or is it just my hormones?

I don't agree it's ok to be aggressive, and I don't think I have been aggressive.

I distinguish between spanking and a beating, though I appreciate there may be a fine line.
A parent who gives a swat or two when angered is rather different from anyone who uses a weapon to do so, or who repeatedly smacks the child, several hard blows at once I mean.
The latter I would certainly consider child abuse, the former, while I still believe it is wrong, isn't child abuse imho.

I feel uneasy about the OP favouring circumsicion because it is "hygenic and looks nice"

if she had said it was because of her religious beliefs I would still not agree with her but respect her beliefs

that's why I don't like religions

for me, religion is about taking away people's free choice and following rules blindly

babies have no say in this proceedure, which to me, is barbaric and typifies all that is wrong with religion

female circumsicion is illegal and is classed as child abuse and the relevant authorities would take a child into care if they were aware a girl was being taken out of the country for this operation to be performed

To dispel any myths out there:

Circumcision DOES hurt.My ex was done as a teen and he said it hurt like hell. Ok his was done for medical reasons.

There is no such thing as a 'foreskin.' It's actually flesh of the penises shaft. In essence, skin is being removed from the shaft itself.

Circumcising does NOT prevent infection, or keep the area 'clean.' Smegma, a substance that remains between the 'foreskin' and the glans of the penis keeps it clean. It's like your average feminine discharge; the body is defending itself.

Removing the foreskin makes sex less pleasurable for a man, and for the woman he's chosen to partner. It leaves SO MANY nerve endings not in tact in the penis for the man, and allows less friction for the woman.
To the mothers that have circumcised their sons; would you have removed the inner labia of your daughters? How about their breast tissue shortly after birth.

Baby boys should be left the way their born. They're perfect as they are. Once you take that skin away from them, they can never get it back. Leave it, and let them make the decision for themselves about their OWN body.

"Circumcision also destroys nerves and nerve endings that send pleasurable sensations to the brain during sexual activity.

I do agree that I find it extremely odd that people are concerned about the appearance of their son's penis, something they'll most likely only see up until the child is toilet trained.

I can understand having a preference for the appearance of one's partners genitals but someone having it done specifically for that reason, is odd and rather concerning imho.

I'm not really thinking of the OP in regards to this,the main reason in her case, or at least that of her dh's is the religious factor. However I have debated this topic with women who wanted it done solely for cosmetic purposes.

I'm tempted to do a spin off thread on this but I won't, but there are several issues I've been pondering.

Can a loving parent also be an abuser?
If a loving parent commits an act of abuse do they become an abuser?
What defines abuse?
Is the definition of abuse universal?
Does culture and religion excuse abuse? Or can something be abusive in one country or culture but not in the other because of the reasons for doing so?
Are the intentions of the perpetrator what should define what is abuse or what is not?
Or do the feelings of the victim about the nature of the ''abuse'' define whether it is abuse or not?

I'm not expecting you to answer btw, just pondering to myself and dp isn't here to debate with me.

And are abuse and abuser such loaded and emotional terms that we are reluctant to call a spade a spade?

Again I'm not thinking of a bris here, more the beatings that you mentioned.

Note to self. Acquire life.

I may do so later, going to have my tea and biscuit fix now. I know it will most likely get very heated and I've no wish to offend anyone.

LOL. I get very little done at weekends too, thanks to MN.

lol MN is good for making you neglect do the housework

Thunderduck, i think the spin off thread you have mentioned would be a very good idea.

Justaboutback and WW I would like to apologise for my manner towards you. I was aggressive and I don't really know why. It's not like me at all. Clearly something about this issue triggered some very powerful feelings in me.

I do think it is a good thing that people who perhaps had before not thought about this issue and would simply have gone ahead and had it done to their baby, may now stop to think about what they are doing and take on board some of the comments made on this thread.

It is sad that the OP has not come back. I hope she really thinks about this issue from the pov of her son before making any decisions.

I also just wanted to add that I think religious followers should adapt to the current state of knowledge of our society. What i mean is that many relgious rituals such as mc came about hundreds of years ago when we didn't have the knowledge we have now. Eg It was thought until fairly recently that babies didn't really feel pain but we know that even as yet unborn babies can feel pain whilst in the womb.

It was perhaps genuinely beleived many years ago that a baby wouldn't feel pain during a mc but we know now that is not the case.

Would it not be a good idea to perhaps have some sort of ritual that did not involve mc but would in a different, painfree way maintain a tradition that is clearly important to people of certain religions?

justaboutback, you're welome. I feel quite ashamed of how i was behaving yesterday. Like i said it is not like me at all. I'm usually a 'live and let live' type of gal.

oneplusone - I posted this link a few pages back but it's probably worth posting again - it's a link about Brit Shalom which is a non-cutting naming ceremony for Jewish boys

www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/brisshalom.htm

I'd really be interested to hear from a Muslim or someone who knows a lot about Islam as I'm not clear about the rationale in Islamic faith.

justabout - I have to tell you that I have no faith at all but I really enjoy discussing the issue with you. I find your perspective very interesting and always very fair. Have you considered applying for Thought for the Day?

I personally would leave it up to the child to decide if he wants to get circumcised later in life. can't imagine self-pleasuring and sex is much fun without a foreskin (so DH says anyway!).

Hi, I have been lurking around, and just wanted to say that the OP has presumably gone on holiday (she mentioned it in her OP).

I hope she does come back, as it has been an important debate.

Here's one thread you can read,OP. It's old though so please don't bump it

Fuck. I just did the exact same thing I didn't want to do. Ignore.Ignore everyone.

I'm having a brunette moment.