To expect our parents to BUTT OUT??!!

[LavenderStar]

DP is Jewish but I am not. It has never been a problem, he was brought up in the faith but it isn't a big part of his life now, although he doesn't eat pork or shellfish. His parents are more religious, don't mix meat and milk, go to synagogue etc. but don't have any problem with the way he chooses to live his life now or with me.

Anyway I am 25 weeks and if we have a boy we decided to have him circumcised. It was never a big discussion between us, I actually prefer it (I think it looks nicer and somehow it seems more hygenic) and DP I think wants to do it more as a traditional thing than anything else and obviously every other man in his family has had it done. I think his parents might go so far as to get upset if we didn't although I don't know. But frankly it is nothing to do with his parents.

Anyway so my mother phones up today even though she knows we are going on holiday tomorrow and have a million and one things to do at home and at work, and I told my dad I would speak to her when I got back. Obviously though what she wanted to do was more important and she told me that she was phoning as something had been "bothering" her. She thinks circumcision is "an unecessary procedure" (to put a baby/child under anesthetic) and potentially dangerous (eg they could cut too much off). I actually don't know much about it but we would have it done in a hospital and I am sure it would be fine in this day and age. I am not sure what it has got to do with her anyway.

My parents don't have a religion and have always been very supportive of whatever I have wanted to do in life. I am not sure if she has started interfering now because I am pregnant or because it is actually something we need to consider more thoroughly. What does everyone think?

Also now I just think it will cause a problem between the families whatever we decide to do and everyone has always got on really well. I don't know why parents think they have the right to shove their opinions down our throat, it makes me really angry. DP's mother is already slightly neurotic and we already have to "manage" her, so I could really do without this, I feel like telling them BOTH to f* off!!

Or is it just my hormones?

I am a granny and would have to say something if my daughter was subjecting dgs to an unecessary general anaesthetic especially as baby will not be Jewish.

They don't use GA for babies pramma .

mumsnet is very anti-circumcision as you will find (there have been some serious disagreements in the past)

i think you do need to find out more about circumcision, it isnt quite how you think it is, for example it is rarely done in hosp if not medically necessary (there are some nhs hospitals that still offer it, up north iirc ) it is commonly performed in clinics and not under a general anaesthetic (although a local is given and pain relief ime)

your mum has a right to express her opinions, you should listen to her, then she has said her piece and then whsatever you do decide then will have had her time to say

you might get a girl and avoid the whole issue, i know there was a lady on my antenatal mn thread who had two girls and was relieved not to have to make the decision

Okay, thank you everyone for your opinions. I get the fact that people think it is a serious medical procedure which carries risks and that my mother was not unreasonable to express her opinion to me. Of course, if we decide to go ahead, I will research it thoroughly. The only reason I haven't done so as yet is a) DP is a reasonable and well-educated man and I trust his opinion and experience and b) it is some time off. But I will look into it more thoroughly before we take any action. I didn't realise it was such a big deal to be honest so thank you for your posts.

However, I do take offence at the use of the language directed at me. I posted to ask people's opinions, not to be abused and called "mad" or "naive" or basically told that I will be mutilating my baby's body. This is hurtful and not constructive.

If DP wasn't Jewish I don't think I would consider the procedure, and my mother knows this. All I am saying is that at the moment, I personally have no problems with it (although agreed, I need to look into it more). What I think people need to appreciate is that it is an integral part of the Jewish faith and therefore it is not "unnecessary" in that we can just decide not to do it and it wouldn't be a big deal. It has been done to all the males in DP's family and it is a deep-rooted aspect of their religion. All the males in DP's family have had it done (with no adverse effects, and many of them are doctors/consultants, which may also be why I had not thought it to be a serious medical consideration). But getting back to the religious aspect - would you tell a muslim woman not to cover her face because it is not widely accepted/understood in our society? The same goes for some of the African tribes who stretch their necks! Maybe it is not practical, but we have to understand it is so much more than just "marking" someone's membership to a community.

As for what is best for the child - I agree. The child could be a Hindu if that's what makes him happy, and it may well be that we wait until he is old enough to discuss the whole circumcision thing with him.

As for our parents' involvement - yes, they have rights and I will listen to their opinions. But it is our family, not theirs, and they should respect our wishes once they have put their opinion across. And thanks to Pigleto for pointing out that DP's opinions must be taken into account. I do not want to be made to feel like a bad mother for something that ultimately is up to us and not them.

It is a complex matter!

But lavender the boy won't be jewish because you aren't!

But even if you consider the procedure is necessary for Jewish males, your DS would not be Jewish anyway, as you are not.

So his religion is not a big part of your DP's life but you are happy to have your ds's foreskin cut off???

Because you mistakenly think it is more hygenic?? And you think it looks better??

Come on what did you think folk on here were going to say??

Covering faces is not a matter of religion (no where does it say to do this in Islam, it's a cultural thing) and yes, I disagree with it. I also disagree with people who have their childrens neck stretched. Why assume people who have posted here wouldnt say anything about these?

THe trouble is you got called those things because what you are thinking of doing is mutiliation and not giving your son the chance to have a say in it. I agree with the poster who pointed out the irony of this.

I wouldn't say anything to a muslim woman about her choices re face covering, but I would say the same to her as I have to you about circumcising her son.

YANBU but you certainly need to do more research into the op and the pros/cons. I know nothing about it, but might it be possible for your child to choose to have the op later?

This might be a way to difuse the situation with both sets of parents whilst allowing your child to choose their faith and ultimately circumcision.

Plus, I presume you don't know the baby's sex, so could possibly say to parents you're only discussing it with DP prior to the birth. No point getting in an argument about something that might not happen.

and you've said yourself none of you are Jewish anyway!

But Lavender, as I said, I have a lot of Jewish friends - who between them have nine boys. Not one of them has chosen to have those sons circumcised. It is not being anti-Semitic to suggest that it is a cruel practice. And you might not like the language people have used but it is fact that to remove part of your child's body unnecessarily is mutilation. Covering your face is hardly comparable.

"What I think people need to appreciate is that it is an integral part of the Jewish faith and therefore it is not "unnecessary" in that we can just decide not to do it and it wouldn't be a big deal. It has been done to all the males in DP's family and it is a deep-rooted aspect of their religion."

I thought that you could only be Jewish if your mother was? So your son cannot be Jewish as you are not. And it is not a big part of your DP's life now.

So why do this horrible thing to your DS on religious grounds?

Covering the face and circumcison are hardly comparable!

One is a piece of cloth that can be added or removed at the individuals will without any pysical consequence...

The other is the removal of a delicate piece of a childs flesh without his agreement which will scar him for life and affect every sexual encounter he ever has!

And he's not even Jewish!!

Op do you agree in female circumcision? if you dh was from a family whos religion called for baby girls to have their genitals cut away, would you do the same to your dd?

yes i agree with your mother with both things your mother said
but
yes your parents should butt out
yes it is up to you and your husband

A Muslim woman who chooses to cover her face has the option of uncovering it later. A child brought up not eating pork has a similar choice later in life. If you wish to express religious belief or cultural identity in ways which do not permanently alter your child's body, then most people would say that's simply a matter of personal choice.

But permanent changes to a child's body are different. If a woman came on here saying she was going to put her daughter through genital mutilation for religious/cultural reasons, you'd probably think that was a bad thing, wouldn't you? The difference with male circumcision is the fact that it has been "normalised" because it is commonly done in some groups.

As others have said, your child will not be Jewish anyway, since you (the mother) are not Jewish. Your DH is not very observant of his faith. Even if you were both committed to the Jewish faith, many people in those circumstances still don't have their boys circumcised.

I think this is much more about culture and tradition than about faith and religion. Your DP would like his son to be like him and the other males in his family, so having your son circumcised seems to him like a logical thing to do.

Having said that, I do find it hard to believe that all the men in his family have discussed their bits and joyfully and openly concluded that not one of them has had any problem or issue related to the procedure. It's a very personal thing and you never know how a particular man might really feel about it deep down.

As the mother of two boys, I am personally against it, just as I would never pierce my daughter's ears until she was old enough to decide to have it done herself.

Most American men are still circumcised at birth regardless of religion-I know one woman from the US who has never seen a willy with a foreskin on it! So over there a boy might feel very odd if he hadn't had the chop. Over here the reverse might be true.

Your ILs sound like pretty secular Jews to me, given that they have welcomed you into their family, thereby foregoing the possibility of having a "Jewish" grandchild per definition. So I'm sure they'll be able to tolerate it if you choose not to have it done.

Read up about it, discuss it with your man, and tell everyone else meanwhile that you are thinking it through and will decide after he's been born. That way you can deflect any further discussion outside your own little sphere and make your own decision when the time comes. I'd advise against any fanfare whatever you end up doing as one side of the family is bound to have an issue with it. It will merely be the first of many difficult decisions you'll have to make as a parent where other people might think you've got it wrong.

Finally, some links for you: www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Circumcision/Pages/Introduction.aspx?url=Pages/what-is-it.aspx

and

www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/circumcision1.shtml

I think you may find that this is just the start of many battles probably because your parents are worried and may not understand enough about the Jewish religion and how you and your DP wish to bring up your child within or not the religion.

Correct me if I am wrong but I also suspect that this may be the 1st grandchild so it makes everything 10 times worse. And yes your hormones are getting in the way.

If you do have a boy it is up to you and your DP to decide whether or not the baby is circumcised and no one else. There are enough men walking around who for religious and non-religious reasons have been circumcised. Should you decide to have it done ask around make sure the person doing it is in demand that way you know that he has been practising!

let's hope you have a girl then...

YANBU to think that this is your decision and not your mum's

YABU to expect your mum to not express a view on something she feels strongly about. She is perfectly within her rights to tell you how she feels BUT once she has discussed it with you and you have told her how you feel she should leave it up to you.

YABVVVVU to put your baby through a surgical procedure such as this without doing any research yourself. I get that you trust your dh but I think you need to make sure you are happy yourself. I also wouldn't presume that because doctors and consultants in your dh's family have been circumcised its not a big deal - they hardly gave informed consent if they were babies when they had this done so in that respect it's not relevant is it?

I am a surgeon. All operations carry some risk the most serious (but clearly very very rare for something like this) is death. No way would I be doing something like this to my child unless it was for medical reasons as I would not take the risk even if it was minute. Of course, you are perfectly entitled to say you want to take the risk having educated yourself in all the pros and cons but personally I would have to say it's not worth it

No, STRICTLY SPEAKING my son won't be Jewish unless I choose to convert. That doesn't mean I don't respect my DP's religion or that my son won't be educated/experienced in many aspects of the faith. My DP is not hugely religious but he does respect the religion he has been raised in. He and his family are all very reasonable people but it is important to them. We both go to all the Jewish festivals and DP's basic attitude to life is a reflection of some of the principles of the Jewish faith. But no, he is not orthadox. This doesn't mean he/we can't choose to respect certain aspects of the faith. Does everyone who celebrates Xmas have to be a Christian?

I studied Sociology at Uni and so in answer to themildmannerjanitor - in fact I wouldn't judge something I didn't understand. Every society/culture/religion tends to think theirs is the only way, and judges others quite easily when in fact they may understand very little about the complexities. To compare it to a Muslim woman covering her face - yes it is a piece of cloth which can be easily removed, but in terms of women's rights is it acceptable? This topic may be worthy of a thread in itself - but if women are equal to men, do we find it acceptable in our society that Muslim women cover their face so as not to attract attention from other men and anger their husbands? Would we turn up at an African village and tell the women that are strectching their necks that it is barbaric etc - or would it be accepted as part of their way of life? All I am saying is that it is a religious practice, and one which we should try to understand before dismissing it.

I respect people's opinions on the matter and fine to tell me I am being unreasonable - but there is a lot of agression on this thread, with use of words such as "barbaric" etc. And I find it highly offensive that people are saying I will be mutilating my child. It is hurtful to use this sort of language when I posted for advice. Surely the idea of Mumsnet is to support other women, and to give them honest opinions when asked for (like on this post) - but not to upset them!! There are ways of saying things to people - constructively. I have not said I am going to go out and chop my son's arm off for the hell of it, I am asking for advice about circumcision and happy to receive any and all comments - but not happy to receive abuse (and in fact I have no respect for these posters); I understand this seems to be a controversial topic, but can we please try to keep this dignified and constructive.

What this thread has done is made me think about the matter a lot more carefully. I appreciate the fact that it is considered by a lot (if not most) people to be unnecessary. I am somewhat disappointed in the tone and manner in which a lot of posts have been made, and I would like to hear from any Jewish mumsnetters or other people who have had difficulties integrating certain religious practices into UK life.

YANBU in wanting to make decisions for your own child but I can see why your mother is expressing her concerns.

You basically want your child to undergo a medical procedure that you have little knowledge of so that he fits in with a religion that he doesn't actually belong to and because you think it will look nice.