To expect our parents to BUTT OUT??!!

[LavenderStar]

DP is Jewish but I am not. It has never been a problem, he was brought up in the faith but it isn't a big part of his life now, although he doesn't eat pork or shellfish. His parents are more religious, don't mix meat and milk, go to synagogue etc. but don't have any problem with the way he chooses to live his life now or with me.

Anyway I am 25 weeks and if we have a boy we decided to have him circumcised. It was never a big discussion between us, I actually prefer it (I think it looks nicer and somehow it seems more hygenic) and DP I think wants to do it more as a traditional thing than anything else and obviously every other man in his family has had it done. I think his parents might go so far as to get upset if we didn't although I don't know. But frankly it is nothing to do with his parents.

Anyway so my mother phones up today even though she knows we are going on holiday tomorrow and have a million and one things to do at home and at work, and I told my dad I would speak to her when I got back. Obviously though what she wanted to do was more important and she told me that she was phoning as something had been "bothering" her. She thinks circumcision is "an unecessary procedure" (to put a baby/child under anesthetic) and potentially dangerous (eg they could cut too much off). I actually don't know much about it but we would have it done in a hospital and I am sure it would be fine in this day and age. I am not sure what it has got to do with her anyway.

My parents don't have a religion and have always been very supportive of whatever I have wanted to do in life. I am not sure if she has started interfering now because I am pregnant or because it is actually something we need to consider more thoroughly. What does everyone think?

Also now I just think it will cause a problem between the families whatever we decide to do and everyone has always got on really well. I don't know why parents think they have the right to shove their opinions down our throat, it makes me really angry. DP's mother is already slightly neurotic and we already have to "manage" her, so I could really do without this, I feel like telling them BOTH to f* off!!

Or is it just my hormones?

I cannot imagine doing this to any of my baby boys. Strange that such a horrible thing is common to both Jewish and Muslim religions. Why is it so prevalent in America-hygiene I'd guess, although I'd had thought millions of years of evolution would have designed the best type of penis!

"But actually an increasing number of jewish families are choosing not to circumcise,"

I'm not aware of this at all in my Jewish circle of friends.

but my dad assures me that it was a bloody painful experience

You think it hurts a newborn any less? Your uncle was an adult who knew what was going on and was able to rationalise the pain. A newborn baby does not have that capability.

Anyone in a first world country who circumcises their child for any other reason than an actual medical need (not some hypothetical need) is guilty of child abuse in my opinion.

I am jewish and I chose not to have my DS circumcised. My view was that he could make that decision for himself when he is old enough to decide whether he wants to have a religion. According to jewish law he is jewish. The decision was much easier for me as my DH is not jewish and therefore felt quite strongly that he did not want DS circumcised. It has been very hard for my family to accept.
The bottom line is that it is our choice for our child.

So to sum up a few things in a completely unbiased way

You can have it done for medical reasons. For hypothetical medical need in the future. What are the number of people who actually need a circumcision for medical reasons if it is not done as a tiny baby? Is it 1 in 100 of the uncircumcised, 1 in 10000?

You can have it done for hygiene reasons because you think your son will not wash

You can do it as an alternative to wearing a condom

You can have it done for aesthetic reasons

You can do it because your faith or culture dictates it should be done

No one of those reasons gives me any indication that it would be a good idea.

Babies who have been circumcised cry much more, there is a reason for that. They are in pain or have been traumatised.

In the long term it numbs the head of the penis as it is constantly rubbing what would otherwise be protected.

I would not say that people who choose circumcision are child abusers, but I would question the reasons for their choice for their child, who has none

"The bottom line is that it is our choice for our child."

I don't think it should be, I believe deeply that this should be illegal in the same way that female mutilation is illegal.

You're not allowed to choose to slit your child's nose on the grounds that it will look nicer, or make it easier when they catch a cold. You're not allowed to claim you have an imaginary friend who insists on the removal of every newborn's left little toe on the grounds that it is a demonstration of your commitment to your superstition, and that the child won't miss that particular toe.
So why should you be allowed to cut any other bits off your child when there is no medical necessity to do so?

Post traumatic stress disorder?
Posttraumatic stress disorder[1][2] (PTSD) is an anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to one or more traumatic events that threatened or caused grave physical harm.
It is a severe and ongoing emotional reaction to an extreme psychological trauma.[3] This stressor may involve someone's actual death, a threat to the patient's or someone else's life, serious physical injury, an unwanted sexual act, or a threat to physical or psychological integrity, overwhelming psychological defenses.
In some cases it can also be from profound psychological and emotional trauma, apart from any actual physical harm. Often, however, incidents involving both things are found to be the cause.

I totally agree with SGB. Parents should not have the right to do anything to their child's body without having a medical reason.

FFS, If the potential baby IS a boy, what is wrong with letting his decided for himself when he reaches adulthood.

I know that babies are devastated even to wake up and be alone at 8 days old. Imagine putting them through this, as the people they trust look over them.

John Kellog (of cornflake fame) started the trend in the US. He believed it would stop masturbation in young males. It was also suggested that acid was put on the clitoris of young girls for the same reason, thankfully that didn't take off in the same way

I can't understand anyone that would want to do this to an infant for ANY reason other than medical (now not in the future, just in case)

I wish it was illegal

Yep, in the same way we wouldn't accept going to the doctor and being f*d with a Dildo to relieve 'female anxiety' as they did back in the day.

I love the Kellog history, have you read TC Boyles Novel on the theme?

Aha - I knew I wasn't making it up

www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/brisshalom.htm

What happens if you have two sons, one circumcised - for religious reasons - and one not?

How do you explain to the first that you didn't protect him but you protected the second?

You explain that you learned it was a mistake to have done that to him.

Spice - fantastic link

"Much of the pain in the world is a result of repeating old harmful patterns of behaviors"

that just about sums it up for me

also

" * There is some evidence that radical circumcision ? periah ? wasd as a result.
" not instituted until the second century CE, to prevent Hellenized Jews from concealing their status. Evidence shows prior to that, Milah was much milder ? only the removal of a sliver of foreskin from the tip of the penis.

• Metzitzah ? sucking the baby?s penis to remove blood from the wound by mouth ? was a long-standing and essential part of the ceremony until the end of the 19th century, when it became clear that mohels with TB or STDs were transmitting the diseases to the babies and many babies die

My brother had to have a circumcision, aged about 7, as his penis was swelling up and his foreskin was very infected. They did try anti-biotics and other stuff as well, (bear in mind I was only 13 so my memory is hazy!)

He had a stay in hospital and an anaesthetic. He was in a lot of pain following the surgery, but was given pain meds. I know of 3 other people that had it done for the same reason.

I have no idea how it affects him now, (nor do I want to know about his sex life!!) But him and his gf have just had a baby!

To do it for anything other than medical reason is appalling.

Just because he is your son, doesn't mean he is your property to do with what you wish.

Once again agree with Morloth (and everyone else who thinks it is child abuse).

I cannot believe that a mother who has just had a baby boy could allow him to be mutilated in this way for no reason other than a religous one. That mother is putting a load of traditions and myths before the rights of her son, her flesh and blood.

Sazlocks, I am grateful for the sake of your child that you did not have him circumscised. But I think you are wrong in thinking you had a right to make that choice for him. Luckily for him you decided not to, but it was never your choice to make in the first place. Your son is an individual with the same rights as you. Just because he is not in a position to voice his wishes or exercise his rights does not mean they do not exist.

It is every mother's first and foremost duty to protect their child from harm not to inflict harm on him.

I have a 3 year old DS and I would die for him. To cause him pain would kill me inside and i simply could not do it no matter what sort of pressure i was under from other people. We are not jewish but it doesn't matter, my children are the most precious, cherished gifts i have ever been given and to hurt them would be the biggest crime i could commit.

How anyone could even consider doing such a thing to their little baby is incomprehensible to me.

This makes for interesting reading

Crikey. Is this BS? We need scientists!

Circinfo is very much a biased site.It's extremely pro circumcision.

Yes, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't get a fully rounded view of all aspects of the issue.

I mean, would you not read SearchLight because it's very anti racist?

I wonder why people keep posting links to these sites and articles that are pro-circumcision and are linked to this issue of the US only giving money to African Aids charities if they don't give out condoms and push circumcision or abstinence instead.

I think this circumcision debate has more to do with fundamentalist Christian ideas than Judaism.