To expect our parents to BUTT OUT??!!

[LavenderStar]

DP is Jewish but I am not. It has never been a problem, he was brought up in the faith but it isn't a big part of his life now, although he doesn't eat pork or shellfish. His parents are more religious, don't mix meat and milk, go to synagogue etc. but don't have any problem with the way he chooses to live his life now or with me.

Anyway I am 25 weeks and if we have a boy we decided to have him circumcised. It was never a big discussion between us, I actually prefer it (I think it looks nicer and somehow it seems more hygenic) and DP I think wants to do it more as a traditional thing than anything else and obviously every other man in his family has had it done. I think his parents might go so far as to get upset if we didn't although I don't know. But frankly it is nothing to do with his parents.

Anyway so my mother phones up today even though she knows we are going on holiday tomorrow and have a million and one things to do at home and at work, and I told my dad I would speak to her when I got back. Obviously though what she wanted to do was more important and she told me that she was phoning as something had been "bothering" her. She thinks circumcision is "an unecessary procedure" (to put a baby/child under anesthetic) and potentially dangerous (eg they could cut too much off). I actually don't know much about it but we would have it done in a hospital and I am sure it would be fine in this day and age. I am not sure what it has got to do with her anyway.

My parents don't have a religion and have always been very supportive of whatever I have wanted to do in life. I am not sure if she has started interfering now because I am pregnant or because it is actually something we need to consider more thoroughly. What does everyone think?

Also now I just think it will cause a problem between the families whatever we decide to do and everyone has always got on really well. I don't know why parents think they have the right to shove their opinions down our throat, it makes me really angry. DP's mother is already slightly neurotic and we already have to "manage" her, so I could really do without this, I feel like telling them BOTH to f* off!!

Or is it just my hormones?

GA itself is not without its risks either. When DS had to have surgery on his foot the dangers were outlined for us and they gave us significant pause.

Just because a baby can't vocalise the pain and talk about how much it hurts doesn't make it not hurt.

I think it should be illegal for anything other than a medical reason. Just because other countries/cultures/religions do something awful doesn't mean it should be accepted practice.

It is not your body, you should not interfere with it unnecessarily. It's just WRONG. I can't believe there are people who can't see that.

If an adult man wishes to be circumcised according to his faith, then he should absolutely be able to do so in any way he wishes, it's his body after all.

Babies and children are not their parent's possessions, they are people in their own rights and have a right to bodily integrity.

But that is a pro-circumcision website! it is not impartial and is highly misleading. It is also a US website, not a British one. I have specifically not put up anti-circumcision website info because it would be misleading. I have simply stated a combination of facts and statements straight from the BMA.

I'm not surprised your parents are upset about the idea, as it is not part of their culture. It's one thing for them not to interfere on issues of parenting choice which will not harm the child, but there really is no good medical reason for routine circumcision in newborns. IF there is a medical reason, fine, but as I understand it that is a fairly rare occurence and obviously you could make that as an informed choice down the line.

It's a massive decision to make on behalf of your child which will affect his future life, especially if he's not going to be brought up in the faith (which it doesn't sound like he will be - am I right in thinking 'Jewishness' is passed down the mother's line?).

Seems pretty black and white to me.

Not your body not your choice.

Well, there is still a debate about female genital mutilation. Maybe I'll get some pros and cons website links from Africa, where WE DON"T LIVE and we'll all sit around and debate doing that to our daughters.

Or we could just follow the advice of the BMA for both boys and girls.

I think the discussion about GA has provoked a bit of confusion.

I would say that most people in the UK when they think about infant circumcision would assume GA would be used - we are not familiar in this country with the procedure. I know I never thought circumcision was that much of an issue until I learned it was done without anaesthetic. (And in fact from what I have heard, the extent of the "local" anaesthetic isn't particularly effective anyway as most local anaesthetics still carry risks to babies. So quite often the infant will be given a pacifier filled with sugar water ) - but when I learned that I immediately knew I did not agree with it and that I can never agree with it.

I've heard some heartbreaking stories from people in the US - and the sad part is they don't even know their stories are sad. I have heard people say "Oh, it wasn't that bad, he fell asleep while they were doing it so he can't have felt it at all". - What they are unknowingly describing is the baby going into severe shock.

There are also common complications such as discomfort and increased crying in the first few weeks, and a negative effect on breastfeeding, which carries its own health implications.

The less common complications are infections caused by having an open wound almost constantly in contact with urine and fecal matter in the nappy. Of course the penis is dressed but the dressing cannot be waterproof.

Then, even more rarely, but still common enough to be encountered fairly regularly, you do get circumcisions which go wrong - too much or too little foreskin can be removed, causing tightness during erections in later life. Depending on the method used the procedure can go wrong causing scarring and deformity in the penis. In very rare cases the penis can be severely deformed.

Have just found stats - 4 in 100 circumcisions result in minor complications, 1 in 500 result in serious complications.

Thankyou CherryChoc. I think that the OP does think that it would be done with a GA.

Sorry, pressed send without finishing!

I get the impression that these are the only circumstances she would be consider it, but you seem to be saying that it simply is not done under GA.

Have I got that right?

Honestly I don't know - I have no interest in having the procedure done so haven't looked into it, all I know is from discussion on mainly American websites, over there it is standard not to use GA, I assume because of the risks of GA to newborns.

Have just googled and it seems to suggest GA is used in older children and adult circumcision but local anaesthetic is all that is used for babies. I don't know whether any hospitals or doctors would circumcise a baby under GA in this country, but with respect I doubt the OP has looked into whether this is possible as she said she hadn't (yet?) done much research on the subject.

CherryChoc I agree with you, she just seemed to have assumed.

BTW We won't hear from the OP for a while, as her post mentions she is going on holiday today.

But justabout, that report quite clearly says that UK experts are unconvinced and as millyr and RIMOD have pointed out, the study would not apply to UK infant males in terms of either heterosexual or homosexual transmission of HIV and other diseases.

The best possible prevention of the spread of sexual disease is the use of condoms. No one, surely, can suggest that they are seriously aiming in having their infant boy circumcised because of the risk of HIV? That would be insane when it is so clearly inferior to the use of condoms and basic penis hygiene.

Also, if the OP is planning on doing it because her husband is Jewish, then presumably it will be done at a Bris which is no anaesthetic as far as I know.

justaboutback - I know you are being kind because you are kind but I cannot see any justification in still carrying out this procedure in a world where we have hot water on tap (for most of us) so the hygiene argument doesn't stand. As I said much, much earlier in the thread so you may have missed it, none of my Jewish friends have had their sons circumcised, even though they are all 'done' themselves. I think that's quite telling, don't you?

I think Reform Judaism actively discourages the practice actually (but would need to research that further)

Well DS dad, as I mentioned earlier, was circumcized for medical reasons and he did mention this to me when DS was a baby (ie look out for anything problematic on his willy as it may be inherited). However DS willy is perfectly healthy and anyone trying to cut a bit off it would get their own kicked up between their shoulderblades.
So while there may be some well-intentioned people who think there may be a medical need for it, there rarely is, and modern medical science recognizes that.

[[http://www.reformjudaism.org.uk/a-to-z-of-reform-judaism/medical-ethics/brit-milah.html Reform Judaism does support circumcision based on God?s commandment of Brit Milah to Abraham (Gen 17:9-14).

Not sure what the Muslim background is for circumcision.

Reform Judaism does support circumcision based on God?s commandment of Brit Milah to Abraham (Gen 17:9-14).

Not sure what the Muslim background is for circumcision.