to think Delia is a bit of a tosser for saying' I am not a feminist - I like men'

[bigmouthstrikesagain]

Stick to the cooking theres a dear

lol flo

I didn't mean Delia has a "feminist" life because she has a career. I meant more because she's in control of her own destiny and money and seemingly not affected by a need to conform to any feminine or sexually available stereotype. (Unlike some celeb cooks I could mention!)

I completely get your post GlaDOS - it is all so complicated, and women as a group do not experience everything in the same way which is why there is such a variety of thoughts in feminism.

And for me, I completely agree that women have always tried to make themselves sexually attractive, and with an evolutionary view, it makes absolute sense.............but by objectifying women to these limits ( I do think it is a form of mutilation but no different to corsets really)it just shows we have not asked the right questions and addressed what is important for women.

We need to be sexually attractive. But for me, we also need to have a fair throw of the dice in other things should we choose, and by exploiting this desire for sexual attractiveness with surgery and mutilation, I think it objectifies women to a dangerous extent.

And that is where the cultural pressures have not changed, and IMO the pressure has got much worse.......I know that because as a 34 year old feminist, I often wonder whether I would have botox, and there is a bigger part of me than I would care to admit that is prepared to do it! And I question this pervasive pressure on me when I have such strong views against the extreme objectification of women.

muffle are you suggesting that Ms Lawson should shave her head and wear dungarees?

tbh i always thought feminism was about economic independence for all and making women take full responsibility for their lives, so my feminism is probably quite anti-women as it makes me feel ill when women try to duck responsibility for their actions, which I some of us still do. The Feminine Mystique is one of my favourite books and I think it is still relevant - the number of posts on here that are about trying to force men to fit some commercial or cultural stereotype is hard to take IMO.

It is pretty depressing to have Delia denying feminism three times before Jenni Murray crows though. it is also depressing to realise that this won't cause much of a stir, whereas 'DELIA: I'M A FEMINIST' would probably be some sort of story

Yes! No but it does depress me that she (and presumably her producers and editors) seem to think a display of sexual provocativeness has somehow got to be a constant theme. Yawn! And she's spawned a load of imitators now whose shows are really about drumming up "frisson" between them and their male guests or making food that can be slurped and licked as much as possible. It's so tiresome and also it bugs me that it's so acceptable for women to try so hard to make themselves look like man-pleasing slappers on programmes that don't even have anything to do with sex at all.

ABetaDad

why don't you go and do something "manly" it doesn't do much for a man's image to spend alot time on mumsnet....

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

TSAKADP - ah but ... you see I am doing something 'manly' its just that I can multitask and do it at the same time as being on MN

I think sprogger is right about the definitions of feminism, but that's where I see it is a problem, because it just looks like the other side of patriarchal control.

Where I've struggled in the transition from being under extreme patriarchy to a more egalitarian view of the world is that feminism does occasionally come across as just another attempt to control and manipulate women.

Sprogger - "The point of feminism is to look at the choices available to women and analyse the surrounding social, economic and cultural pressures"

What about analysisng what women freely choose as well. Its not all negative pressure. For me, it's less about feminist ideology and more about feminist consciousness. In recent years, I've been at the nub of battles where an inert feminist ideology has activly tried to oppress progressive and evolving feminist conscicouness. I also believe feminism is there to help women, not the other way around.

Pea's, I think we all feel that pressure. But I think there may be a confusion about where it comes from. That it might not actually come from men, but other women. The beauty ideal for women (fashion magazines) is slightly but importantly different from the male beauty ideal (FHM, Nuts, page 3, etc). Its the easiest thing in the world to 'blame' men or culture, but women are part of that culture, we create it as much as men.

Female competition is kind of the devil that dare not speak it;s name for feminism. As though any acknowledgement of female competition is bad. But men are very open about their competitivness, and work better together when they need to because of it.

Theres a lot of ground feminism

Well not me pruners... her finger-licking ways make me really annoyed (and shout at the screen "oh just cook the f*cking cake you daft bint"). And St. Delia manages not to do it, or to need to do it. And has more money than nigella. probably.

I've knitted loads!

pruners I think one of the ironies about dear curvaceous feminine Nigella is that yes, sensuality is used wholesale but look! She's not bone thin, doesn't want to be, and certainly doesn't encourage it if we all follow her recipes! The female she promotes is the complete antithesis of the "could pass for a boy" the male designer dominated fashion world have conned us with.

soz, Theres a lot of ground feminism hasn't explored because if ideology, and that, ironically, disempowers us.

what are you saying ABetaDad...that you're a bit of a wanker?

abetadad you go (honorary) girl

Completely agree about women creating the culture too - which is why it all makes sense with an evolutionary view: You need to knock out the competition for survival of the fittest ethos! This is a major major motivator for women. Which makes Delia's comments all the more ridiculous !

I think the weight thing can be a red herring. Yes, the promotion of unhealthy skinniness is to be deplored and fought. But, in backlash to that there there is also this phenomenon where we find ourselves saying "hurrah" that someone is telling us to stuff ourselves with 5,000 cals of bread&butter pudding when we get in from the pub (as nigella memorably did in one show I saw) and they're on the curvy side too and that's all seen as some kind of great female triumph. It's not. It would be a triumph to be able to absorb some interesting info about something and learn to do something without the body of the person conveying the information being the main obsession of the day.

As is (mainly) the case with male presenters.

What is the 'status quo' though?

Maybe Delia's comments just show how confusing feminism is, not how confused women are?

muffle "without the body of the person conveying the information being the main obsession of the day" indeed!

Peas "Which makes Delia's comments all the more ridiculous !"
Perhaps Delia should have said I'm not a feminist I like women!

No, Ladies Against Feminism, which I mentioned earlier in jest, are undoubtedly women invested in the status quo of 'traditional patterns'.

But replacing one set of women ripping women apart from voting/going out to work etc. with a group of women ripping women apart for choosing to take career breaks etc. is just as controlling, tbh.