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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think Delia is a bit of a tosser for saying' I am not a feminist - I like men'

374 replies

bigmouthstrikesagain · 23/03/2009 10:25

Stick to the cooking theres a dear

OP posts:
GLaDOS · 25/03/2009 16:15

Dittany, I am not discounting the work feminists like MacKinnon did in bringing rape to the political table. I am tryng t have a nuanced and subtle debate, with plent of common ground, but you keep hammwering it into false dichotomies.

I do not hold any feminists in contemt. Again you are mistaking criticism with contepnt. I have the utmost respect for feminist pioneers - but feminism still needs to progress.

MillyR · 25/03/2009 16:18

It is completely untrue that only ideas that are a matter of debate need to be referenced.

slug · 25/03/2009 16:21

The problem is GLaDOS you are criticising the feminism of the past while completly failing to recognise feminism as it is today.

dittany · 25/03/2009 16:21

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dittany · 25/03/2009 16:25

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slug · 25/03/2009 16:28

Like nice ladies

charitygirl · 25/03/2009 17:05

Gotcha mumcentreplus - i wondered if that's what you might mean, after i posted obviously.

I really don't want to get into this because I will only get too cross but saying that feminists aren't keen on giving advice to lessen the risk of rape is bullshit...sounds like it might be true, undermines feminism, makes anti-feminists look like the common sense ones on the sides of real women...bingo. Let's see if it flies.

But it's not true as others have pointed out. What is true is that feminists will not brook suggestions or implications that women are to blame for being raped. Even if men did have a biological imperative to do it, that still wouldn't lessen their responsibility for doing it. Would it? I have a 'bio imperative' to get pregnant. But if I go and act it, everyone will still assume I've made a choice.

dittany · 25/03/2009 17:15

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Mumcentreplus · 25/03/2009 17:23

hahaha..cow...we are on the same page charity..feminism does not feel the same because Radical Feminism has done it job and served its time...

This in turn does not mean feminists or feminism does not exist...I quite proud to be one...scares the crap outta some men..

GLaDOS · 25/03/2009 18:17

Feminism of the past is not the feminism of today? If this thread is anything to do by, it's all about the past. People here are still taking about biological imperatives and biology as if it was determinism. It isn't. Biological determinism has been out in the open as a fake bogey man for some time now. Yet I'm the one who knows nothing of today's feminism? If this thread is a true reflection of feminism today, I despair for it.

Why do you always do this Dittany? Do you really think condensing peoples arguments into your own sound bites makes them that shallow? Do you think people reading them cannot smell the desperation in them? Did I say we should "ignore" the negatives? No, i said it was biased with negatives. "There isn't a political party or political movement in the world that doesn't have criticisms of the way things currently are and proposals about how they should be in the future." Erm, I hate to burst you bubble but there are tons of them! Or, "Claiming men rape because of a reproductive imperative is simply wrong, and nuanced or not" Actually, it isn;t wrong. In any sense of the word. It really isn't. I know you don't want it to be so. But that doesn?t make it so. I am really sorry.

Re the rape crisis centre my specific point was about their myths section. And people can go on and read it without your editorial help and make their own minds up about the impartiality of it. It is there for all to see. There is no need to use selective quotes.

Mumcentreplus I am not an anti-feminist. To assert that I am means that this thread is entering silly season where people are not interested in discussing things reasonably." Even if men did have a biological imperative to do it, that still wouldn't lessen their responsibility for doing it. Would it?" Absolutely it does not. Just as people have a biological imperative to murder some people - hatred - greed - and it doesn't lessen their responsibility either. The 'men can't help themselves' is not a hard argument to crush actually. We have nothing to fear from biology.

I am a feminist. Just not a second wave or post feminist. That apparently equals ?anti-feminist?. Of course it does. I, and so many of us a ?female chauvinist pigs? for not toeing the 2nd wave line. Shame on us.

I have never asserted all men are rapists. I have never asserted that I have contempt for feminist pioneers. Oh, I've been misquoted so much here and now its reaching a feverish pitchfork hysteria. Who is on the defensive here? Who is threatened? It isn't me.

solidgoldbrass · 25/03/2009 18:18

There are certainly many different feminist viewpoints. I think it fair to say that both Dittany and I are feminists, and while we agree on many things (such as women's rights to autonomy, freedom of movement, choice of employment etc) we disagree on others. Doesn't stop us both being feminists and doesn't stop a degree of mutual respect, either.

dittany · 25/03/2009 18:36

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dittany · 25/03/2009 18:44

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GLaDOS · 25/03/2009 18:47

Oh Dittany and me used to be on the same side, until I started thinking feminism could improve itself by consolidating it's failures with its successes and begin to write a new scrip for a new genreration of women. Ever since, every time I have offered Dittany the han d of friendship she's scorned it. As for respect, I've been personally attacked by Dittany on these boards many a timer - never once have I asked any of her posts to be removed. I've onlyt ever once asked for a post to be removed actualy, and that was a post about Dittany.

She was so vehemently against a recent paper about the female orgasm, and when it became clear she actually hadn;t read the paper at all, it was (as usual) a knee jerk reaction to all things evolutionary. I think its safe to say that Dittany has me marked as the enemy. But the attrition that many feminist ideologues (I've no idea if you are one of them SDS, but Dittany certianly is) have for the evolutuonary paradjim is well documented.

MN is ceryainly big enough for us all, and it would not be good for alternate views to be aired. But to say I'm anti-feminist? That is an out and out lie. How do I maintain respect for people who would bend the debate so out of shape?

dittany · 25/03/2009 18:54

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Quattrocento · 25/03/2009 19:22

LOL at the idea that money does not equal power.

Double LOL at the idea that women have power in hidden and mysterious ways (ie their ability to influence men)

That idea exists as a means of coming to terms with being disempowered. It might comfort you, but it is bollocks really.

Grendle · 25/03/2009 19:55

Much of this debate about rape has passed me by while I've been out.

I'm really sad that people equate only money with power . I came from quite a financially poor background (benefits, free school meals etc). I never felt limited by it and always knew I had power within me to change things -both to take charge of my life and to affect others around me. I'm really depressed to hear that others thing that unless people have money they are powerless. It seems quite patronising to me too.

Grendle · 25/03/2009 19:56

think not thing, sorry

GLaDOS · 25/03/2009 20:04

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ScottishMummy · 25/03/2009 20:41

GlaDOS you have lost it and are drinking in the no mates saloon.with huge megalomaniac tendencies

resorting to being offensive,obtuse,telling other posters not to post.mmm i think not. you want to reconsider your censor it if no one agrees tendencies

is it because they are running (intellectual) rings around you and skelping your arse red raw

do come back when you can play with the big girls

Mumcentreplus · 25/03/2009 20:47

GlaDOS at no point did I say you were anti fem I was making comment with regard to rape as something men are capable of in crisis situations..my comment was not even aimed at you...I for one will not dismiss what other women have achieved in the name and ideology of feminism...and I welcome any new ideas or progress that encourages and fulfills Feminist ideology...my arguement is not with you...tbh I haven't even read any of your posts aprat from 20:04:59

dittany · 25/03/2009 21:02

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tattifer · 25/03/2009 21:02

After finally getting kids to bed (complete with hot water bottle cure-all for tummy ache) after day at work amongst macho colleagues and a bizarre amount of small blond female probationers, a lunch time spent bitching about a 19 year old niece who finally has the baby she always wanted (but refuses to work cos she gets more on benefits) and refuses to let father of baby live with her (because she gets more on benefits) it's a bit sad to see that no one has come to any sisterly and harmonious compromise on feminism...

NotanOtter · 25/03/2009 21:07

who were you glados?

dittany · 25/03/2009 21:14

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