to detest those who think they are superior beings because they were lucky enough to have a natural birth

[Reallytired]

My son was born naturally, but my second is currently stuck in a transverse position. I am trying everything to get bump to turn, but if it is not sucessful its looks like I will have to have a c-section. In many ways I feel disappointed if I have to have a c-section, but I will still feel proud of myself.

If you go into labour with a transverse lie then there is very little to you can do to deliver naturally. It does not matter how much whale music or however many doulas or independent midwives you employ. My waters broke at 36 weeks last time so this is why am a little concerned. The local hospital is not prepared to try and turn the baby before 38/39 weeks.

I know that it is possible to a have a vaginal breech birth, but with a transverse presentation, its just not going to happen.

I am still hoping bump will turn, but the experience is making realise that a lot in childbirth is complete and utter luck. You can try everything suggested on the internet, but there are times when the baby is stubborn.

Going to argue with you ARAG - I don't think it's in the genes. My mum had me and my sister in less than 4 hours, each. I was definitely not that lucky!

You've disproved my argument in one fell swoop, samestuff. Or maybe there's a mutation somewhere... . Four hours for the both of yous -- Wow.

Luck, genes, or whatev... birth competitions stink.

I also think, in response to ARAG;s post, sometimes (disclaimer: not always!) if a woman has a very fixed idea about giving birth naturally, and really goes all out with the yoga, exercising, whale music etc, it can sometimes be setting yourself up to 'fail' if it doesnt all go as planned.
I know birth plans are recommended, but mine was very brief, and I think a healthy degree of flexibility is a good thing! The only thing I was pretty fixed on was that I didn't want an epidural (and indeed booked into a midwife unit so wasn't an option anyway). Other than that, I didn't have any strong feelings about water/birthing balls/whale music. I certainly wasn't some earth mother type who was convinced that I would sail through labour and find it a breeze. I was pretty scared to be honest and found it very very painful! But I would definitely recommend not getting a very fixed idea in your mind about how it will all turn out, because ultimately we don't know. As I discovered with dd2, when I also booked into the midwife unit thinking number two really would be a breeze and then ended up needing a csection for medical reasons and a ten day stay in the regional hospital!!

violethill - re the pain fear link. I really believe the 'deer in the woods' anaology. All other animals, like deers for example have an inbuilt safety mechanism during labour. If they are in labour and something dangerous comes along, like a predator, they experience feer/stress, these stress hormonones slow the labour down, thus giving the deer a chance to run off and find somewhere safer to give birth. Why would humans be any different? The only difference is that we can experience stress and fear for all sorts of emotional reasons. Stress interferes with labour and slows it down. If you can allow your body to feel relaxed during contractions, the contractiona are much more efficent. Because you are calm and accepting of them, you can mentally detach and your perception of them being 'painful' detaches as well. That's what DD's birth was like. The further into the labour I got, the less 'painful' it became. I didn't register pain at all by the end. This was because of the relaxing technniques my doula taught me and because I felt a deep calmness. I was 'flopping' at contractions. And no, I don't think I'm anything special. I just got specialust help and had no labour issues. I wailed like a banchee with my son. Samebody, totally different circumstances.

I think there can be no doubt or argument that to feel safe and secure in labour is essential, both to the process itself and the perception of it following.

Sadly the 'services' were set up at a time when the people in charge of designing and building hospitals didn't know this and couldn't have given a rats arse about this, and women were not empowered to demand this in an organised way.

Bugger.

In one swell foop, ARAG?

True true, violet. (Hoping I didn't come across as not liking my birth experience... I loved it and was proud of it, I just didn't like MIL's smugness.)

nyuck nyuck

Nobody likes smugness directed at them. Regardless of the cause.
But it begs the question, do people like being smug?
Personally, I always feel like a filthy hypocrite when I catch myself being smug. Which spoils the enjoyment.

(Very late night musings. Or perhaps, early morning musings.)

I was warned off (by a friend who had a CS) telling various of my friends about my birth experience because most of them had had a hideous time of it - and I hadn't. I wasn't smug, I wasn't hypocritical, I wasn't anything except RELIEVED that I hadn't had to go through the sort of traumas that they had had to - and I willingly kept quiet about the non-tearing, instant placental delivery, half hour stage2 labour good bits so that these other women DIDN'T feel I was being "superior". I didn't FEEL superior, I felt lucky.

Don't believe in the genes theory either, sorry ARAG - my sis had both her DDs by CS, the 1st as EmCS due to failure to progress and foetal distress, the 2nd elective cos too soon after the 1st (in Obst opinion). She also had horrendous stretchmarks, as did my mum - not me.

Message withdrawn

'I can single handidly [sp?] blow the 'fear is the cause of pain' theory out of the water'

I do of course realise that fear is a huge contributing factor to pain experienced. Don't want to piss anyone off unintentioanlly. The post this is from was essentially light hearted and totally about my experience- but in case it didn't read that way wanted to explain

Message withdrawn

'Cos I can piss everyone off very easily with my spelling!

thumbwitch - isn't it a bit of a shame though that you couldn't have your time to talk? Or didn't you mind as they were friends.

I 100% agree Pruners. Now how often does that happen on mn?

It's really sad and a diservice to ourselves and others.

No future scientific publications for me then... ah well..

Pruners, 'We all do what we can at the time and with the people we are allocated and the knowledge we have.'

There it is! And well done everybody, I say. It's friggin' miraculous no matter how you slice it (perhaps a bad choice of words ).

here here!!

I am not sure anyone should be proud of something over which they have no control or which is simply because of how they were born. You could be proud of keeping so fit birth is easier (if that were true) or proud you avoided intervention that is unnecessary because you chose to be well informed but not proud your child happened to be head down etc etc

Agree with Xenia. I am proud of my real achievements in life. I'm proud of my book. I'm proud of the horseradish sauce I made for supper. I'm proud of the fact that I am bringing up a disabled child to be a confident and happy person. I am not proud of the fact that the same child came out through my vagina; that wasn't something I had much of a choice about.

They are far and few between, but there are people who lower your self-esteem by telling out outright that you must feel so bad if you've had a section. My SIL was actually rung up by her midwife who waffled about this at great length and said she must be wanting counselling so as not to feel so bad about it. My SIL is a fairly robust person who volunteered not to feel bad about it all for free, but you can see how that would dent some people's confidence.

I have had one friend who went on at me in a similar vein re my crash section with ds.

So it's not necessarily all projection from the point of view of the OP. These people do exist. But there aren't many of them.

And some people make children a kind of career thing for which they need badges when it isn't that at all.

I tend to agree with cory that there are the odd few 'smug' mum's out there, but I think mostly it is the media (and I'm a journalist!) and medical profession that make you feel bad if you have a c-section.

It seems very disapproved of by the 'powers that be' probably mostly on financial grounds rather than anything else but they like to dress it up as being about the wellbeing of mother and child to give birth 'naturally'.

I had my DD by emergency CS 4.6 years ago and was traumatised by the fact she had to be 'cut out of me'. It wasn't something I went round dwelling on but I definitely felt there was a missing link between carrying her and her being there which in my case I feel contributed to my difficulty in bonding with her and PND. Even all this time later, I can't bring myself to say I gave birth to her cos in my mind I didn't.

That said if I had another one (which I'm not planning to)I would definitely go for an elective caesarean rather than VBAC, cos for me it was as much about a lack of control (I was induced 2 weeks late as well) as the actual mechanics of the surgery.

Hopefully you will have a little bit longer and be able to prepare for which ever kind of birth you have, which I think helps. My DD was back-to-back facing forward, instead of with her head tucked in and I was told afterwards that there was no way she'd have come out any other way.

I know it's difficult when you're hormonal, but try not project your own concerns (which are totally understandable) on to other people and think abou the healthy baby at the end it, and all the benefits - much more excuse for rest and spoiling afterwards, no stitches anywhere unpleasant, ability to go to tloo without having to take a jug of warm water with you, sitting down in comfort.....

The method of birth is unimportant for me. It is just a means to an end where the objective is a healthy live baby and mother. I find it strange that some women focus so much on method and think in terms of a birth hierarchy.

One hopes for sound judgement in choosing a method if there is choice, but what happens on the day depends on luck and the skills of those around. Ultimately, the experience however wonderful is transitory and what you take away (or not) is the baby. I would say that feeling lucky that nothing went wrong is more appropriate than superior that everything went to plan!

Xenia!

"And some people make children a kind of career thing for which they need badges when it isn't that at all."

My son is mildly autistic and has dyspraxia. My 'badge' will be seeing him rejoin mainstream education and do as well as he possibly can in life.

What other 'badge' or salary could be more important? Don't get me wrong, I'd like a salary and a job, but ft motherhood isn't some misguided, pointless, foolish sacrafice imo. It's an essential sacrafice, one worth making.

Arabicabean:
Agree with every word.

I had a c-section; so what? My baby - now a toddler, was and still of course is healthy, strong and beautiful.

Many mothers spend far too much time dwelling on their births, when they have gorgeous babies in their arms. Self-indulgent in most cases, IMO.