to detest those who think they are superior beings because they were lucky enough to have a natural birth

[Reallytired]

My son was born naturally, but my second is currently stuck in a transverse position. I am trying everything to get bump to turn, but if it is not sucessful its looks like I will have to have a c-section. In many ways I feel disappointed if I have to have a c-section, but I will still feel proud of myself.

If you go into labour with a transverse lie then there is very little to you can do to deliver naturally. It does not matter how much whale music or however many doulas or independent midwives you employ. My waters broke at 36 weeks last time so this is why am a little concerned. The local hospital is not prepared to try and turn the baby before 38/39 weeks.

I know that it is possible to a have a vaginal breech birth, but with a transverse presentation, its just not going to happen.

I am still hoping bump will turn, but the experience is making realise that a lot in childbirth is complete and utter luck. You can try everything suggested on the internet, but there are times when the baby is stubborn.

Well I have no idea because that is a very concise summary of events and I wasn't there! I would want to know the reasons for the induction. Ideally, if the induction was simply for 'post dates', well, ideally it might not happen, depending on all being ok with the baby.
If there was a reason for the induction and it didn't work, as you decribed, then CS is the obvious next step. As you say, it's hard to know what would have happened.

Babies' heartrates do drop with every contraction, it's normal, it's the rate of recovery that's noted iirc. It's not always explained to parents though....

Lots has been written about continuous foetal monitoring btw, it's statistically more likely that you'll end up with a cs, than if you are only intermittently monitored. Some of those will be life-saving operations and some will have been unnecessary, conservative measures if you like.

having given birth two weeks ago and the mmeory still being fresh in my mind, I am VERY proud of doing it with just gas and air as it flipping well hurts and was horrendous

but I don't feel superior about it, just pleased I managed not to have an epidural or pethidine

Love Horton's last post! So very very true. And big claps are so much fun

LuLuMama talking sense as always.

Verena how is the woman to know though, or her birth partner?

If the doctors are saying she needs a CS then it must take a lot of bravery and self assurance to refuse it.

I'm not sure how many women and their birth partners are up to it in that situation. For instance neither I nor my DH would have been able to interpret the heartrate machine to see whether the dropping was within normal parameters or not.

And you'd never forgive yourself if something went wrong.

Is it really such a terrible thing to put yourself in the hands of the HCPs in this country?

I suppose what I'm saying is that it seems unrealistic for women in labour to make judgements about turning down procedures that they are being recommended by consultant doctors.

And if we can't trust the doctors to be looking out for our best interests, then where does that leave us?

every mum in the world has a birth story...

some are good, some are bad, some make you want to say aye right, some make you want to say lucky cow, some make you want to cry.

I dont understand the debate around what is easy/best/wrong right

JazzHands it would be great, if we didn't know that some of those HCPs have different agendas, and that birth as it is 'done' in British hospitals is often counterintuitive and aspects of it go directly against what we know is best practice....I mean, none of this is earth-shattering stuff, sorry if I'm going on a bit...

I agree it is hard to challenge but maybe that's the wrong word to use. People are often told to question and in particular to ask if there are alternatives, or what happens if nothing is done immediately (this has 'saved' quite a few births from being unwanted caesarians).

Birth partners need to be better prepared in the current climate, and if the father can't be (I absolutely understand why) then a doula of some sort is a good option. Women simply need an advocate, just in case.

I am not slating the NHS out of hand btw, personally I had a fab birth in an NHS hospital with a truly great midwife. My experience is relatively rare though!

Sorry, just to reiterate, I am agreeing that a woman in labour should not be having to challenge consultants. She needs the security of knowing that someone is looking out for her though. It should be the birth partner. I think the role of birth partner is really underestimated atm.

totally agree, Verena - I've had a doula at two of my births and it is such a fantastic experience....would have had totally different outcome esp this time without her there, I suspect

Jazz Hands, you are right, especially in an emergency situation it is veryyyy difficult to go against doctors advice...I know that despite being very well informed about child birth by the time my 3rd child arrived I still was bullied into an Emergency C-section....by the time I was in Hospital I had been so freaked out I wasn't thinking clear and the doctor was a bully....nightmare scenerio of impossible communication and lack of empathy (including the midwife in Hospital)...and that was very much a big issue to me afterwards, I felt I let myself and my child down by not fighting harder, for being so scared at the time, etc....
Dh was, by that time also shit scared and in no position to fight my corner.

I had also been bullied out of a Homebirth with ms, which doesn't sit well, and if I had the same information I had by the time I was pg with ds3, I would have had my HB wiht ds 2, and it would have been the perfect Birth....

Did the op come back?

One of mine was transverse and turned at the last moment. I had to have a natural birth when I'd spent the last 10 wks psyched up for a caesarian. That was hard for me. I didn't feel prepared bacause I was so sure I was having a cs.

So many women are upset after having a caesarian that I think there is something hormonal (and I don't mean that in a disparaging way, I mean it in an evolutionary way) that is out of synch between mind and body following a cs. (sometimes).

Personally I wouldn't have minded. I just wanted a healthy baby, but, i did find it quite hard to get my head round the fact that my December baby arrived in November and wasn't a Christmas baby after all. It was just not what I'd been anticipating.

I think that's when people get unsettled. When there's uncertainty and so on.

And do be aware that in law a woman in labour can refuse treatment even if it would ni the view of doctors save the child's life. There was a case on that which I found very comforting when I had my twins.

Had they been born on the NHS rather than with mym own midwives they would be routinely induced at 38 weeks. We let them stay in until they came naturally at 40 weeks. They were checked regularly and were fine in there and the 2 weeks of extra growing time I think did them loads of good but that was my and my private midwives' decision and not conveyor belt NHS twins best practice.

All births are hopes not certainties and no one should feel upset they had a particular kindo f birth though. You go into it not knowing how it's going to be and are just very grateful you're not in some countries where you'd be fairly likely to die.

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I don't generally get involved in "birth" threads for reasons which will become obvious but I just felt compelled to comment.

It has been a source of great amazement to me since "having" DS the degree of insecurity/one upmanship that revolves around methods of birth. I can understand people revelling in their own "easy" labour or being traumatised by their own experiences but I truly can't understand why anyone feels intimidated or belittled by anyone elses story. You have all in differnt ways done something truly incredible and marvellous. You have produced a new life out of your own body, you have nurtured it for 9 months give or take and have started a new personality on their way in life. It never ceases to amaze me that women can look at this incredible feat and not think that it is a wonderful thing, however it came about.

I have about as unnatural a "labour" as is possible, I picked up my DS from an orphanage on the other side of the world. In so many ways he too is a miracle but he isn't "my" miracle. Be thankful every day for what you gave your DC's, beleive me you really won't be lying on your death bed thinking "bugger I wish I'd just managed with gas and air".

I agree. It's how you love them etc which counts but Women's Hour had a programme a while back interviewing a woman in her 80s who was told nothing about childbirth before the birth, her daughter in her 60s who to this day regrets the interventionalist mechanical childbirth and CS she had in the 70s when they routinely shaved people, gave them an enema, made youi lie on your back etc. and her daughter in her 20s or 30s who had a pretty good birth. Itw as interesting that decades on the nature of the birth was so important to the women and I can remember even now 24 years ago having our first child.

The main reason I felt happy with the twins' birth was I felt in charge, that I was controlling the process even wehn the second twin was born in hospital I felt I was taking the decisions, calling the shots, determining what happened and was involved in the process rather than it being something taht was done unto me.

God, Pruners, I'd have hated that! . I loved having DH there, but it was too intimate an experience for me to want anyone else close to me there. Sounds bonkers when I write it...

And great post, Kew.

I couldn't give a toss how you give birth. Dyou wanna hear my birth story? Thought not

Yr having a baby. Tis a means to an end

Kewcumber, I can't understand it either. Oneupmanship about births. Really?

I do wonder why so many torture themselves obsessing over how their baby arrived months after the event.

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Fantastic post, Kew. Absolutely spot on.

And I think we're our own worst enemies in the whole birth process.

I did feel great when my consultant turned up, because he had been so kind to us when dd1 died, and so supportive throughout my pregnancy, and he was just so confident that I could deliver this big girl, and so calm, that it did make me feel very happy - that's something I was very lucky to have (though unlucky in how it came about - consider it a gift from dd1!).

Pruners - I did say that I can absolutely understand individuals feeling trauatised by their own birth story and beleive me i do understand vulnerability and mistrust and the torment of supposed perfect experiences which turn out to be somehwat less than expected - in my case ending in nothing.

My point was that I didn't understand the ability of other peoples story to undermine your own story. Because that doesnt happen only when you've had a traumatic birth, it happens all the time. I've often heard stories trotted out like there is some kind of pecking order in teh birth hierarchy. Luckily I don't even get as far as the footnotes of the bottom of the scale so no need to get dragged in

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