to detest those who think they are superior beings because they were lucky enough to have a natural birth

[Reallytired]

My son was born naturally, but my second is currently stuck in a transverse position. I am trying everything to get bump to turn, but if it is not sucessful its looks like I will have to have a c-section. In many ways I feel disappointed if I have to have a c-section, but I will still feel proud of myself.

If you go into labour with a transverse lie then there is very little to you can do to deliver naturally. It does not matter how much whale music or however many doulas or independent midwives you employ. My waters broke at 36 weeks last time so this is why am a little concerned. The local hospital is not prepared to try and turn the baby before 38/39 weeks.

I know that it is possible to a have a vaginal breech birth, but with a transverse presentation, its just not going to happen.

I am still hoping bump will turn, but the experience is making realise that a lot in childbirth is complete and utter luck. You can try everything suggested on the internet, but there are times when the baby is stubborn.

I wonder if the OP is grieving for the loss of her expectations as to how she is going to meet her baby.

You should be allowed to grieve about not having a normal birth if you feel sad about it, without having people telling you that it doesn't really matter how your baby arrives in the world.

Peachy - I'm sure women in Malawi do think that csections are great when they're done to save the life of a mother or a baby.

But I can't see anyone thinking that undergoing unnecessary major abdominal surgery at the same time as taking on the care of a vulnerable baby is a 'good thing' in any other circumstances.

Oh, I don't like these threads.

I was crap at giving birth but I'm still very proud of coming out the other side of it with a beautiful DD.

Please don't attack other people for their rightful sense of pride.

standanddeliver...but the OP doesn't seem to grieve, it's her that says it doesn't matter how you give birth...and I agree wiht you, it certainly mattered to me....

standanddeliver out of interest how do you define an "unnecessary" c-section?

Are you talking about people who go private and have one purely by choice, or about the increasing rates on the NHS? ie that people who are told it is the safest option for whatever reason may be having them unnecessarily?

Just that I've never met anyone who had a c-section on anything other than the advice of their doctor.

But seriously...I cannot for the life of me understand what good comes from criticising other people over how they gave birth to their babies. Or criticising them for feeling pleased/happy and/or upset/disappointed/traumatised etc.

People have very different experiences and experience things very differently.

This is not rocket science.

Oh god, that previous thread [anger]

That's the one where I pointed out that women who have epidurals do often experience pain. And got told I needed to debrief my birth because I talked about it being painful!

Stepping away from this thread!

!

But I can't see anyone thinking that undergoing unnecessary major abdominal surgery at the same time as taking on the care of a vulnerable baby is a 'good thing' in any other circumstances.

is life that simple?

there was a woman in hospital when I had ds3 who'd been induced thenhad a section so baby came before her dh went off on a tour with the marines- why not? she was only 3 days early

Friend chose hers as she didnt want a VBAC. She was tiny and worried; another person I know lost their own mum in childbirth and had one.

Outside the Portland I imagine there are very few c-sections chosen for no discernible reason. Not discernible to us perhaps, but not to the Mum or Obs.

Had the Obs not agreed to a HB with ds4 he was going to be induced at 38 weeks- for very good reasons linked to me not wanting to be at home with 3 kids (2 asd) and no other support when having a very quick (and it was, 35 minutes) birth. Not a medical reason but still, IMO, very valid.

There's no value in judging. Support those who ask for help, and let those who are happy with their own choices be.

A fair number of sections happen because there has been a change in expectations of what normal labour is. This is all well documented. Friedman curve, introduction of anaesthesia incl Twilight Sleep etc.
A good book for those interested is "Birth: A History" by Tina Cassidy (a mother who ended up having a CS and decided to research the topic because of that.
"Misconceptions" by Naomi Wolf is also good, though slightly navel-gazing. Don't read if pregnant.

chequers, i think i may have said you needed to debrief your birth, based on the fact it sounded upsetting and difficutl and traumatising to you. and if it came across badly, i do apologise, but i think i have never said birth is or should be painless! but if i have inadvertantly offended, then i am sorry
if it wasn;t me then i;m still sorry you were upset

Just to clarify - a change in whose expectations of what normal labour is?

The women giving birth or the medical establishment?

I think it is a bit unfair that if you are lucky enough to have a natural pleasant birth then you are expected to keep your mouth shut about it when people are sharing birth stories, it seems to me that most people think only the horror stories count and if you do have an easy labour you are somehow lying or smug.

Have you tried hypnosis for the transverse? DS was lying sidewise at 36 weeks and I saw the hypnotherapist who was working with me for a hypnobirth and we managed to move the little bugger. It might be a bit late though if you haven't had practice with it.

although it is of course perfectly reasonable to feel disappointed. i'm still a bit disappointed by my cs as it has left me with a pretty revolting overhang. but like i say... y'know... dd's here, she's safe, that's the main thing.

The medical establishment, JazzHands
Length of labour is just one example

THough I think many women have unrealistic expectations too
I have read (not on here but in papers) women who said they were shocked that labour was painful at all. That's a bit odd to my mind. Many women who have long labours also see this as something that's gone wrong, when that might not be the case - they might just, unfortunately for them, have long labours!

Also I think a few women's expectations of what will happen in an overworked, underfunded, deskilled labour ward are too high. Sometimes they inform themselves in a way that would be more relevant to a home birth situation and get horribly let down when they have to deal with the reality of a hospital setting.

So should women be taking every opportunity to challenge it when told by the doctors etc that they need a CS?

How should the woman decide whether it is really necessary or not?

Ummm. I had a good birth with dd - she got a wee bit stuck, and they were setting up for forceps, until consultant came in and decided I could manage just fine! Had to have McRoberts manouevre, and no g&a (!), but all was well, and I was very happy.

BUT. It bloody bloody HURT, and in more sensitive moments I got a bit tense at the odd post - and these were rare - which suggested that the pain was all to do with fear, and lying on your back is just stupid, blah blah blah, and I just felt uncomfortable and a bit of the shine taken off my memories.

Now, I'm a cocky, confident bugger, and got over it (esp. as one particular poster breezing on about how pain was all about fear had not yet at the time had her baby), but it's such a profoundly emotional and physical experience that I think it can leave the strongest of us feeling fragile and vulnerable at times. I suspect that the OP is over-analysing a very few comments that have touched a nerve, and not really hearing the morass of normal comments that don't jar, iyswim?

I could not resist posting, because I just don't understand this at all !!!
I feel like starting my own thread: "am I unreasonable to think every woman should be entitled to have an elective c-section" !
I had an elective c-section - for the sake of both me and by baby - and it was fab ! I feel quite smug about it actually - very healthy baby, and a very quick recovery. Three of my friends had babies at about the same time - all "natural births" and it took them ages to recover.
There - I had to have my say, and am prepared to be flamed for this.

It is not appropriate to challenge it in every case, is it? Obviously CS is a perfectly valid operation in many cases! Not 25% of births though...

That's a tough one. Ideally the woman should not be challenging anything when in labour, the midwife should be her advocate, but that doesn't always pan out for lots of reasons.

TBH I think what would benefit women most is having her birth partners read up as much as possible, including educating themselves on common reasons for advocating a CS when it might not be strictly necessary. There's enough info around. Reading "What To Expect" or frankly the majority of books on birth is not going to cut it. But there are lots of sources.

And then....wing it Challenge nicely but firmly if you have doubts, but be prepared that it might be necessary.

Don't think it's worth flaming, LD, just not at all sure what you've added to the discussion. "I liked my c-sections." Oh well, good for you. It's the "didn't do me any harm" argument, and it's usually a bit meaningless.

I had good births with both my sons. DS1 less than 4 hours, only a few stitches and just gas and air and a tens machine. DS2 less than 3 hours and just gas and air and a tens machine.

I felt really guilty about this. At my post-natal NTC group everyone else had such dramatic tales, I almost felt like I had to apologise for my experiences.

We all have different pregnancies, births and parenting experiences. None is better than any other.

This was an unpleasant and divisive (deliberately?) OP. However, I wish you all the best with your next birth.

So what about a woman who was induced (pessaries only), then waters broke, then meconium started coming out, and the baby's heartrate was dropping with every contraction, while the cervix was still closed tight.

Was that a necessary CS do you think?

Or is it difficult to tell what would have happened if nature had taken its course.

Is it a bit like schroedinger - that because the decision has been made, one way or the other, we can never know what the outcome would have been the other way?

I suppose I could start my own thread, too, LD, entitled 'I had a natural birth with minimal pain relief and thought it was great and would do it again tomorrow and was perfectly okay the day after' but that would be smuggery of the highest order and people would come and stamp on my head (metaphorically) and rightly feel that I was boasting about something that shouldn't be boasted about.

I had a perfectly nice, easy, almost pleasant labour and birth but it was just luck. Some people have nice, easy, uncomplicated C-sections. It's just luck. Some people like being pregnant and some hate it. It's just luck. I can't see how any of this point-scoring is in any way helpful to any mother. Anyone who gets through the first eight or so weeks with their sanity intact deserves a big clap, IMO (I have a two year old and big claps are a great feature of our lives and I now can't think of a more grown up term).

that is great LD, but then you know, that is your experience, your personal one

i have doulaed women who;ve had electives who've been utterly traumatised by them, and some who've loved them. some who;ve had emergency c.s and been devastated and some who have just been delighted with it all

it is so very very personal

therefore sayign ' i had X, it was great, everyone else should too' does not really get us anywhere

there are still risks to an elective c.s ( as there are with any birth, to both mother and baby) but it is possible to weigh up those risks and benefits and make an informed decision

saying to women I did X and it was perfect does not give them enough info to make that informed decision

i agree with Habbibu's post..esp/ ' I suspect that the OP is over-analysing a very few comments that have touched a nerve, and not really hearing the morass of normal comments that don't jar, iyswim?'

with regards to the OP , the only decision , informed or not, she can make is to have a planned c.section if her baby remains transverse, it is out of her hadns, beyond her control, and she has had a VB before, so knows this is totally out of her comfort zone. so am not surprised she is feeling angry/disappointed or whatever, but is taking it out on the wrong people!!