to think that day care centres or 'nurseries' should be banned?

[Goodomen]

Having spent some time working (doing supply) in several different nurseries I have been appalled by the treatment of the babies and and young children.

The babies spend most of the day crying, desperately wanting to be held or have some kind of one to one attention.

They are all forced to 'nap' at the same time whether they are tired or not.

They are put in highchairs and fed one by one with the poor children at the end of the row crying until it is their turn to be fed.

The worst part is when the parent arrives to collect their child and asks how they have been they are told 'He/She has been fine, had a lovely time' even if the child has been crying all day!

Why oh why would anyone out there child in such a place?
If you have to work get a childminder!

As I mentioned earlier, career is mostly about your unique abilities and talents (naturally expecting a barrage of fierce and rather personal insults here). The more senior you are, the more experience, hence value, you have and can bring to any company.

rollmops, you are avoiding the question. Which area you and your friends are in which allows you to step on and off as you like?

Seniority means nothing to an employer if skills are obsolete. So what area are you talking about?

blueshoe, my friends and I work in number of different industries yet our situations are rather similar.

Well, I worked as a Staff Nurse in Operating Theatres. I stopped work before ds1 was born, because I hated where I was working, and was basically getting bullied. I didn't go back to work until ds2 was 9 months old, and then only part time.

However, even though I was still working, because I was working part time, I was sidelined - I didn't get sent on courses to further my professional development nor was I given much in the way of managerial responsibility (apart from being left to run lists in my speciality so that the senior staff could run the department) and therefore had little or no chance of promotion.

I have not worked since ds3 was born, and if I were to want to go back to work now, I know for sure that I would be stuck with the boring routine jobs, and would be seen as a has-been who's so far behind the times that she'd have no chance of promotion.

Oh londonone, I'll try to explain AGAIN. I make my choices for my ds. I don't feel the need to condemn anyone else who makes different decisions about their children. (Assuming we are talking about things where there are differences of opinion, rather than clear cut cruelty.)

Did no-one throughout your childhood, no teacher or relative, ever tell you about walking a mile in someone else's shoes? Or read you the bit in the Bible about 'judge not lest ye be judged'? Or worrying about the great big plank in your own eye before starting on the mote in someone else's?

Gawd, youve worked at some terrible places. good thing most arent like that isnt it

I like to think I would know if my child was suffering or not happy in his situation, and on the one occasion he wasn't (with a babysitter), he let me know and I changed him.

He is now going on 10 and has just spent half term at a brand new holiday club in a nursery - he loved it and didn't want to go back to school.

He is currently far happier with his out of school club that he ever was with the childminder I was using. I can tell this without him telling me himself.

I have not readt he whole thread, it is late and I am off to bed but OP your tone isn't helpful or well thought out. Bearing in mind PFB syndrome, it's downright dangerous.

I love you edam.

rollmops, have you and your friends actually gone back to work?

You sound like you live in cloud cuckoo land about these philanthropic employers who will keep your positions indefinitely beyond lip service just because you are good.

Sunnygirl's experience is more in line with reality, from my RL experience as well from reading MN threads.

Since you steadfastly refuse to elaborate about what career you/friends are in, I can only make my own assumptions, ie you have not gone back to work, are not in a senior managerial position, not in a profession like sunny's which requires constant updating of skills or in an industry that is not particularly desirable and has a problem with recruitment.

blueshoes, your assumptions have no importance to me whatsoever, naturally. However, you are of course entitled to your opinion and can hold any and all assumptions you wish if it makes you feel better.
I'm not here to prove anything to anybody.
Childcare and work are very important and sensitive issues to any parent and we all are trying to do our best for our children.
Opinions differ, so be it....

Rollmops, I am genuinely interested to know what your job was before you had children, that you know when you choose to go back to work, your job will be available to you. You sound like you have a very flexible employer who must be employing cover on short term contracts in perpetuity until you either go back or actually say you aren't going back at all.

You have offered your experience as an example of how a career can successfully wait for a woman to take an extended period out, I don't think it's an unfair or intrusive question to ask what that career is.

Why, thank you kindly, georgimama!

No they aren't Riven. That's why rollmops alleged situation is so interesting. Shame she doesn't want to elaborate.

rollmops: "I'm not here to prove anything to anybody."

You would say that because the fact is, you cannot prove that what you say about flexible generous employers is anything but hot air and fantasy.

Of course, employers should be as you describe. But reality is so different it is laughable anyone would hold your views who has experienced it first hand.

I am still interested to know what career you and your friends are in because I want to steer dd in that direction. Would be nice for her to get a well paid job that allows her to step on and off at will.

Holy grail, isn't it?

Rollmops: "I'm not here to prove anything to anybody."

No, rollmops, but if you are unwilling to back up your claims with a few pertinent facts (such as what your job actually is) then you must accept that people will not believe what you are saying.

Stayingsunnygirl, thank you for such deeply insightful comment. Must live with the horrid knowledge that some posters on an internet board do not believe me. Dear me.... However, I'm afraid I won't lose any sleep over it.

The OP really has something against nurseries!

There may the odd bad one but the majority are very good. Any nursery staff I know enjoy their jobs and choose to work in childcare because it it what they wanted to do and have trained for.

Suggesting everyone use a CM is wrong though as it implies they are faultless and provide a higher standard of care. There are good and bad childminders as well.

Childcare is a personal choice and all parents will have different ideas of what they are looking for.

For me, if I had needed childcare, reliability would have been a factor so a nursery would have been better for holiday/sickness cover. I also wouldnt want just one adult, effectively a stranger, alone with my child so another reason for liking nurseries.

I also feel the day is more structured with more activities and learning at a nursery.

Nurseries are also subject to strict ratios whereas childminders can have as many children as they like, children under 8 are restricted but after that there is no restriction. The worry of a CM favouring his/her own child would also play on my mind and if there was a cm's own child I would wonder if they had only chosen the career because it suited them rather than a desire to work with children.

However many prefer the home environment so prefer childminders over nurseries.

At the end of the day, its personal choice and we all choose what we feel is best.

From everything I have heard regarding most nurseries I have an utter hatred for them

I think it's unnatural for babies to be separated from their primary carer all day

it sounds like a production line in some cases

makes me very very worried about this generation of children. It's awful and very very sad.

Of course I am sure there are plenty of great, small ratio nurseries.

But reading comments from those who work in good ones and still see some of the stuff in the oP I am not heartened.

I don't for a second blame the parents, if they have no choice and the gvt is pushing childcare over parent care harder and harder.

Just makes me angry and cross and very sad.

does that mean you don't actually have any experience of nurseries yourself flightattendant?

I wouldn't dream of criticising circumstances and arrangements that i have used or have any real knowledge of. DS goes to nursery and now to playschool but has never been to a childminder. I'm sure there are some great chilminders, and some not so good ones, but i can't really comment as i haven't used one.

CMs work to ratios too. it's not 121 care.

Going to nursery, imo as as a mother, as done DS the world of good. He is confident, sociable, a great communicator and loves his nursery and the staff there. He cried the other day when i went to pick up him because he didn't want to come home. That must be because nurseries are so truely awful .

No that's right choufleur which is why I was careful to explain it is purely my perception of some of the things I have heard which makes me concerned.

Plus the separation from primary carer. I hope to God I am wrong, I would be relieved if I am. It really worries me.

Sorry if expressing my feelings have made you angry. Please ignore my post if you wish.

But flight - upper class children haven't been brought up by their mothers for centuries. And neither have most working class children. The advent of the SAHM happened when the middle classes were properly invented which you could argue about for years but I'd put somewhere early in the 20th century. It's a social construct, spending most of your time with your primary carer, it really is.

Has attachment theory been done on this thread yet?

Sorry I stuck my neck out really - i don't expect everyone to agree, it's just the way I feel - I don't mean to offend anyone, I might be being ridiculous. just voicing my own personal feelings.