to think that day care centres or 'nurseries' should be banned?

[Goodomen]

Having spent some time working (doing supply) in several different nurseries I have been appalled by the treatment of the babies and and young children.

The babies spend most of the day crying, desperately wanting to be held or have some kind of one to one attention.

They are all forced to 'nap' at the same time whether they are tired or not.

They are put in highchairs and fed one by one with the poor children at the end of the row crying until it is their turn to be fed.

The worst part is when the parent arrives to collect their child and asks how they have been they are told 'He/She has been fine, had a lovely time' even if the child has been crying all day!

Why oh why would anyone out there child in such a place?
If you have to work get a childminder!

Now you've brought it up, as a child development and education expert, do you seriously think for a moment I would park my kids in nurseries if I thought this was bad for them?

Quite the contrary, I was pleasantly surprised at the outcome. (I was very fussy in picking their nurseries though, admittedly).

Also, with my work hat on, there is no way it could be argued a child is 'finished' developing in this way by 5. You could make an argument for the age of 6, 7 or 8, but certainly not 5. This is why we have sobbing, periodically scared small people with wet pants sitting in Reception classrooms throughout the UK. Really, that is what we should be banning IMO.

Quattro - I haven't told you what to do I have given my opinion of choices people make. I neither know nor care what your persnal choices are.

LOL at the attempt at a veiled insult btw

You're not deluded?

You think a child's personality is formed by the age of 5? Are you serious? You are, aren't you!

How a child is at 16 doesn't necessarily tell you what they are like at 30. How they are at 30 doesn't tell you what someone is like at 60. It's called development. Do you not understand this?

Agree with you on that boffin.

I am highly qualified and decided when i was pregnant that i would still persue my career when DD was born. It took one visit to a nursery to change my mind - on reflection i now know that i visited a particularly crap nursery but i was recommended to look there, and the brochure sure looked good!! I was probably a bit too precious about my DD to use a CM, but i think for little one's that is the route to choose, i just couldn't handle the thought of my DD attaching to another individual, which actually i think was a bit selfish of me. But hey thats my opinion.

There are days when i think i spent 7 years of my life at university for nothing, but it so wasn't - I was a mature student, so i worked my arse off working my degree(s) around my DD1.

Im not completely niave, i know that some mum's have to go out to work, or choose to go out to work. Thats great if that is what works for them.

Because i left my career newly qualified, it is likely that i wont return to it - but i have choices now - when my DD goes back to school in september, i have choices. I never wanted to climb the corporate ladder so the fact that i will be starting again doesn't bother me, because i wouldn't have given up this time with my DD for anything and i feel privaliged to have been able to have done it. It WAS/IS a privalige in todays society to be a SAHM, and for that, i think, personal sacrifices have to be made. Just the same as WOHMs have to make personal sacrifices - just different ones.

What has become apparent to me whilst looking for suitable nursery for my DD is that the places vary sooo much in quality - I have seen places where they are staffed by bored teenagers just out of college (i actually saw one girl texting on her mobile phone whilst she was supposed to be supervising outside play!) Ive seen places that are poorly equipped (a minor consideration so long as the children feel valued) and ive seen places that are brilliant. I am lucky that my DD goes to a brilliant preschool and i don't have enough praise for the place, its fantastic. Whilst the OP was poorly thought out, hurtful and inflammatory - it does highlight that actually some nurseries aren't that great and i am stunned that these places have any children in them at all.

Ah but I also put my one year old DTs into a hell hole nursery for 2 mornings a week. This is because if I didn't have some time away from them I would probably kill myself - parenting them has provided me with the biggest challenge of my life and I could never have imagined what it would have been like. I researched every nursery and childminder within a ten mile radius of my house and made LOTS of visits. I am more than happy with the choice I made. I love the nursery and my girls coo and shriek with excitement when they arrive, including my DD2 who can be shy and clingy. We phased them in with visits where I was with them for the first 4 weeks and then in another room in the nursery so the staff could come and find me if the girls got distressed. Now I sound as if I am justifying my childcare decisions - I don't need to do that - but I do know that some mums have to put their children into childcare from a young age and I know that must be a really hard decision. I am lucky in that I have managed to find a flexible way of working. Not clever, not superior just bloody lucky. Putting a child into nursery not a decision that any mum will take lightly - like me, they will make the best decision for their child. It is not for you to make sweeping generalisations about those decisions (unlike smoking during pg which is definitely BAD - no comparison to nusery)! I'm not trying to get into an argument with you and haven't got time to read the whole thread as DTs currently napping tho seem to have time for rambling message. OK, here's my point: what you can't appreciate until you have children is how much guilt is involved in motherhood and how defensive the whole thing can make a person. I just feel really sorry for all of the mums who you have probably reduced to tears. I know for you it is an interesting debate but sowing seeds of doubt in vulnerable mums minds is just not nice

In an ideal world, I'd like to see ratios of 1:2 for smaller babies (even better than 1:1 I think, because it's more stimulating and promotes healthy development), moving up to 1:3 at the age of one when they are becoming more sociable and mobile, and 1:8 until the age of 7-8. Continuity of care is important, so carers and teachers should commit to a full year at a time, more if possible. A quasi-domestic environment is also important, so we should avoid formal classrooms until children are 7-8 as well, and surround them with play areas, beanbags and cosy armchairs.

I completely disagree that a child is fully developed by 5 however the years 0-5 are tremendously important and failure to create proper attachments and the associated problems (NOT SAYING THAT NURSERIES HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS)such as RAD are lifelong problems that are very serious. Georgimama - I was wondering what your views on RAD and other associated problems are? You must be very sure of your knowledge on development in order to laugh at others.

I was extremely fortunate in that dh's firm was going through a rough financial patch when dd was born, so that his boss was quite happy to let him go part-time for a year, so that I could carry on my (part-time) job. Made money tight, but if I had not carried on working, my job would have been gone forever; I am the only expert in my subject at my uni, and they would not have been able to find a replacement for me. I would probably never have worked at an appropriate level again. If dh had stayed at home for a year, they would have had no choice but to replace him: it's a small commercial firm with no financial margins.

We never had to use a nursery, though we used a childminder once the year was up. But giving up my job would have meant giving up my identity, the thing I've dreamt of doing all my life. I'm never going to retire, I will carry on doing my work whether I get paid or not.

What you don't seem to realise, londone, is that for some people their work is more than just a job; it's a lifework. It matters as much to me as painting does to an artist, or singing to an opera singer. Of course, Monet could have got a job in retailing...

I think it is a great advantage to a child to grow up in household that has that kind of joy and vibrancy about their daily work.

Londonone said:

"I have made no comments about peoples individual choices"

"I believe that if you have children it should be because you want to bring them up and see how they develop etc and if you will not take a career break for a year or 18 months because of it damaging your prospects then your priorities are wrong"

Then said:

"The first statement means that I have not singled out individuals on this board or in real life to say they are wrong.

The second means that there is a category of people who I do think have made the wrong choice, who they are individually I neither know nor care."

Londonone, you know from this thread that there are women here whom you have been talking to via this board, who have made the choice to put their children in childcare before they are 18 months old. Therefore you are criticising them directly, even though you have not named them individually.

[knows really shouldnt get involved in such an incendiary thread but cant sit on hands any longer]

londonone - my dd will be going to nursery 2 days a week in April when shes 1 - is this ok? Am now going to arrange my childcare around your pronouncements so would appreciate some advice as to what to do.

My ds also went to a nursery 2 days a week from the age of about 10 months and yet he seems to be undamaged - maybe he was just lucky hey?

I think you should also get yourself over to the breast/bottle feeding topic and start on bottle feeding mums on there as well - you obviously have a lot to share...

Boffin - I agree completely except perhaps on small babies! But I think caring for the baby in the home is as of much benefit to the parent as it is to the child.

i actually think it's formed earlier than 5 ..more like 3.

i'm not saying i'm perfect at bringing up children..god knows i've made mistakes...but i've made them...if i've messed up i'll except it...i can never blame the c/m around the corner....i can get it wrong on my own thank you...i don't need to pay someone to do it for me.

I don't pretend to be an expert on child development, I don't think you need to be to think it is stupid to say you can tell what someone will be like aged 16 from what they are like at 5.

A failure to create proper attachments to their parents would be very serious for a child indeed. Fortunately DS is very firmly and confidently attached to both his parents, as well as his extended family. He is also very attached to his wonderful CM, her other mindees (both of whom she has minded for 3 years) and her son. What a lucky boy, eh?

Oh - and for the record, ds2 was in nursery for 2.5 days a week from the age of 9 months until he was about 21 months old, and he's intelligent, well-socialised and very loving. I'd say I am just as well attached to him as I am to ds1 and ds3.

So in conclusion, there are some really shitty nurserys much as the OP and various other nursery workers on the thread have described, but luckily every single child mentioned on this thread goes to the other sort of nursery, which is brilliant.

PS - Lupo I thought your post was interesting. It got a bit ignored in all the mud slinging.

Oh for heaven's sake, no child suffers attachment disorder because their parent goes to work! Ridiculous hyperbole.

cory - I think it sounds like you found an excellent solution. Not sure why your post was directed at me as I have in no way criticised any of the types of choices you have made.

cory - I think it sounds like you found an excellent solution. Not sure why your post was directed at me as I have in no way criticised any of the types of choices you have made.

cory - i am quite of you actually and you do make some great points. I've never found anything to pull my chain enough!

twinmam - i think there is a huge difference between a couple of mornings a week than full time nursery at a young age.

What i think has to happen is that is made more acceptable and provisions made, within society that it doesn't have to be an all or nothing choice.

I am gutted about giving up my career, but that is the choice i made (and to be fair it wasn't just a straightforward childcare issue, there were other factors). I just think it is a shame that parents are almost forced to stay in a workplace just to keep their careers online, when actually given the choice, they would honestly much rather be at home. Im not saying all working mums feel this way, but many do. Of course i don't have the answers to this - as you have highlighted cory - it probably wouldnt have mattered how many govt schemes were in place you pretty much ARE your job, iyswim - lucky you could do the part time thing though

And presumably you have never been to look at the nursery GKS? Did no research? You'll just be throwing your child in there, left to the mercy of all of those evil nursery nurses who will no doubt poke her with sticks and watch her cry? Whilst you rush of to your carefree life at work because you were too selfish to take an 18 month career break? Shame on you...

READ MY POST - I have in no way said that attachment has anything to do with nurseries, I even put it in capitals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

off not of