to think that day care centres or 'nurseries' should be banned?

[Goodomen]

Having spent some time working (doing supply) in several different nurseries I have been appalled by the treatment of the babies and and young children.

The babies spend most of the day crying, desperately wanting to be held or have some kind of one to one attention.

They are all forced to 'nap' at the same time whether they are tired or not.

They are put in highchairs and fed one by one with the poor children at the end of the row crying until it is their turn to be fed.

The worst part is when the parent arrives to collect their child and asks how they have been they are told 'He/She has been fine, had a lovely time' even if the child has been crying all day!

Why oh why would anyone out there child in such a place?
If you have to work get a childminder!

Ooh, there you go Cory, the great guru with no children has spoken and given her gracious consent to your way of managing your family. You must be thrilled!

no one's personality is hardwired, you are a different person when you are 35 to the person you were when you were 18! BUT it is during those tender years that the framework for your personality and outlook on life is formed. I believe that everything that happens to you shapes you as a person - so, positive early years is going to be a fantastic start for any child. Whether that positive start happens at nursery or with a CM or a parent is by the by.

It seems to me that the argument is that children will not be stimulated, loved and cherished enough at nursery? But there are children who are equally not stimulated, loved and cherished enough at home with their mums while they sit on their fat arses watching jeremy kyle! There are crap nurseries (and this needs to be improved!) but there are crap parents too.

Interestingly, londonone, it was always starting Reception, as we were legally obliged to do, that traumatised my 3 DCs (and with the eldest I even worked in the same school, so saw her lots and lots, more than most other parents).

The standard of care they had received at nursery (in the case of the DSs - DD had shared parental care at home with a bit of a nanny or AP top-up) was so personalised and sensitive, that it came as a big shock when their friendly little hugs were shrugged off by a cold, emotionless teacher, and their eating and bathrooms trips were quite so strictly regulated. Looking back I feel quite upset they had to go through that. It served no useful purpose whatsoever other than result in me forcing them up the school drive as they cried and protested. Sometimes I kept them with me for the day instead, because it did seem cruel. The schools didn't regard it as a problem though. I just never got these protests at the nursery - they sometimes cried a bit when I dropped them off, but then they would see some activity they wanted to do, or one of their current little friends, and then sniff and reach out for it/him/her. They were often reluctant to leave at the end of the day.

Between you and me, the only qualm I had about the baby rooms in their nurseries was that I would have been a bit more liberal with the Dettox myself, and we didn't eat so much cake at home, but even then that improved over time. I think nurseries vary a lot and the important thing is to make them a reliable form of childcare, because then they can really influence children's lives in a positive way, for those families who want to use them.

Last night I asked DS1 (11) whether he remembered nursery, and whether he had liked it. He said he did, and if he could, he would go back there like a shot. I think that's not uncommon, tbh.

No, I didn't say you did. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about attachment disorders, you brought it up. Explain yourself.

Sunny, out of interest would you have put your baby into nursery full time at the age of two months?

[peers at twinmam] do you know me?

i don't think i've changed that much from the age of 5.

georgimama - sorry I wasn't clear that was aimed at edam!

Perhaps I've got this whole childcare thing wrong. MY son goes to childcare for 8 to 8.5 hours a day. He comes home, he is with me. He barely leaves my side all weekend.

When he started walking and talking, I was there. When he started pointing, clapping, throwing, kicking a ball, I saw it. He copies my turn of phrase, he mimics my gestures and expressions.

Where was everyone else's children if they missed these things? Was your child whisked away permenantly and returned to you at the age of 12?

Do you know, after typing all that, I think a better OP might have actually been along the lines of how we could make nurseries and infant schools higher quality, and more child-centred and family-centred, as that is actually a major part of the issue here. But I am not brave enough to start a thread about this today!!

And for what it's worth I would argue that if you make your child your number ONE priority then you are actually failing as a mother - BALANCING priorities is what it is actually all about - and that very much depends on the individual!

boffinmum - I agree with much of what you say about reception. The fact your son can remember his nursery suggests that he was older when he was there as I don't think any of us remembers much before our first birthday! I don't know what age you put your children into nursery and TBH a baby cannot remember what's happened or explain it to us so as I said before I think with young babies it is as much about the parent spending time with the baby as it is about the baby.

read this

boffinmum, i think you make a bloody excellent point there about reception classes - i agree wholeheartedly. As parents we can, within reason, choose whether or not we send our children to nursery/cm/whatever. But once it comes to school its very different - we don't have a choice - I am anxiously awaiting the letter telling me which school my DD will be going to in september. She is only just going to be four In our catchment area, there is one excellent school, and this is my first choice - but its a church school and im not a practising catholic so its no way garunteed for my DD to get in there. The next school on the list is "good enough". The other three imo aren't good enough. Both the decent schools are oversubscribed. If my DD doesnt get into my first choice then she is very unlikely to get into the second choice as its pretty much a forgone conclusion that you wont get in on a second choice! So, i will be forced then to send my child ALL DAY into a school i would never have chosen in a million years .

Boffinmum - please start the thread, then maybe this can be discussed without the mudslinging, but lets face it, what good will it do

georgimama - if you really want to talk about your situation that's fine but you are the one bringing it up and therefore if people criticise it it's because you have chosen to put it out there.

I was lucky that I didn't have to make that choice at 2 months, londonone. If I had had to return to work, I would have had to put my ds2 in a nursery.

Interesting, though, that you pick up on that comment, but ignore my earlier one about knowing that mothers on this thread have made the very choices that you are condemning, therefore you are criticising them directly even though you have not named them individually.

My DD hates her nursery so much that she wanted to phone the ladies who work there last night to tell them what she had done yesterday afternoon with me and she was ready by 7.05 this morning to go in.

No one does seem to be criticising me apart from you (and daftpunk a bit).

And you claim not to make comments about individuals? So I'm in no danger.

fivegomadindorset - that is lovely But it is clear that not all nurseries are so lovely That is what needs addressing.

Londonone:

DD just went to playgroup at the age of about 2.5 but otherwise was cared for at home. I think with hindsight she would have been better off at a nice nursery.

DS1 went to nursery at 9 months until school age and I think he probably was talking about his last year there, because he can't remember much before that in his life.

DS2 went at 6 months, also until school age, mainly because he wanted to be there with his brother, as far as I could tell when I dropped DS1 off, so I thought I might as well go back to work. I used to pop in for a quick spy on him at playtime sometimes, to see him in the buggy outside (he was one of the youngest there) holding court and kicking his little legs in excitement as the older children queued up to kiss him on the grounds of him being the little brother of DS1. I also spied on his at mealtimes and he generally was in a high chair near a table with mixed aged children and one carer, a bit like at home, with a big grin on his face then too, scoffing whatever they cared to give him quite happily. Really, there was extensive maternal espionage, and I would have been hard pressed to worry about his care - he was having a great time IMO. BTW he has the constitution of an ox now, probably from all those shared snotty kiddie germs !

I'm not saying all nurseries are the perfect solution, all I am saying is that ours worked better than I thought they would, and on balance I think they did right by our kids and indeed added to the quality of their lives. Just like a good CM or nanny can.

Yeah yeah, londonone, I saw the clause that you inserted pretending you were not associating nurseries with RAD. So why bring RAD up on this thread about nurseries at all? You were planting the idea in people's heads that they may be linked.

FWIW no, I wouldn't have put ds in nursery at two months if there was any way to avoid it (and I was fortunate that this wasn't necessary). But in the past when maternity leave was only three months mothers had no choice if they couldn't give up work entirely. I gather that's still the case in some countries (or even less). Horrible that some societies discriminate against women and babies to such an extent.

ahh georgiemana...i hope i haven't come across like that, apologies if i have...you sound like a fantastic mum...and probably a far better one than i'll ever be.

sunny - people have said all sorts about me on this thread I am not asking them to apologise as they are entitled to their opinion. It's an internet thread, if some people are so insecure about their own parenting that they feel upset that a total stranger doesn't agree with their choices then that is their problem not mine.

Another btw - I would have loved to take the full year off with ds but had to go back due to work restructuring, changes in my department and the thread of redundancy. As the primary earner, I couldn't take the risk of being out of work with no redundancy package. And I was responsible for my team who were going through a very tough time indeed.

Ds is of course and always will be my prime responsibility, but I also have other duties and relationships that are important. (Must go and pay attention to some of them right now...)