to expect to use a disabled toilet when I'm out with the pram?

[CT123]

I can't use the ladies when I have my baby with me in the pram. The only thing I can do is wheel him into the disabled toilet with me. But the disabled toilets have special locks on them, which presumably disabled people have special keys for. I appreciate that they want to stop able-bodied people hogging disabled toilets but what else can I do?

I don't see what difference it makes, as long as you don't make a mess. If the toilet's engaged it's engaged. You'd have to wait disabled or not?
OP YANBU. This is a ridiculous argument, perhaps us pushchair users shouldn't use the disabled access into shops or the ramps either fgs.

As a bloke I find that few places provide adequate toileting facilities. Many do not provide baby-changing facilities that can be use by either gender (they are often in the Ladies, but not in the Mens) and where a Baby Changing room is provided... it does not have a loo which is of course needed for older siblings and me!
Newer buildings (or revamped toilet facilities) I find are getting a lot better - for example a shopping centre near me has baby changing room which includes a couple of changing areas with sinks, a child-sized toilet (so not ideal for me) and an adjoining room for breast-feeding.

You'dsee what difference it made if you had a 9 year old wetting himself in tears in Asda because the loo was being used.

If there is no alternative OK- al ot of us have said that. If your moncup is overfulladn your triple buggy with six weeks shopping might tipover (thats a joke before someone says I ambeing sarcastic) It's the assumption that it's just there, you shouldn't even try to think of an alternative that annoys me.
I look for alternatives even with a disdabled child or two because i think that's what they are: a last resort toilet.

When I care for disabled children we rarely use disabled toilets... the children just aren't sufficiently disabled to need it - they can pee the same as any other child their age!

When I am told that I have to use the baby changing facility in the disabled toilets, it drives me mad - why have they put it there, are they too stingy to put one in the Mens and one in the Ladies.

CT123 - why can't you use the ladies? If the pram is too big to fit in the door, then just take Junior out of the pram - can't you pee and hold a child at the same time (it's an ability you learn to quickly do as a parent/carer).

I like you nannynick

I am able bodied and therefore able to walk, so have never ever used a disabled parking space. However, I have used disabled toilets before when I had a baby in a pram. It's not just the time involved in taking the baby out of the pram, it's also quite difficult to undo belt, unzip jeans, hitch up top, wipe self, etc, with babe in your arms. Plus, you're only in the loo 3 to 5 minutes, not the length of time it take to do your weekly shop; so I think using a disabled loo is a totally different thing to parking in a diasbled space and it's unfair to compare the two. I have asked in service stations for the key before, and no-one has ever batted an eyelid.

nannynick, if the baby/child was asleep in the pushchair, would you wake it up?

Perhaps I ammissing a trick here

Presumably if you need to use a loo atm (excepting periods of course) and can't wait for baby to wake up /end cubicle then you have continence issues and need a disability toilet anyhow

so actually you all are disabled

NOW I get it!

Well I don't think I have got continence issues (although I have had in the past), but if i needed to go, then, no I wouldn't last the 20 minute walk home.

I wouldn't use a disabled toilet unless I was desperate (ie going to wee/poo myself), sorry.

I have been watching this thread, and was a bit apprehensive of posting. Sorry it?s a bit of a long one. Where I?m coming from is that I?m 37 weeks with my first, had no idea this was an issue for mums, and am familiar with the RADAR scheme because my SIL uses a wheelchair and has one of the keys.

Anyways?my understanding is that, using the social model of disability followed by the UK?s Disabled People?s Movement, the preferred term is ?accessible toilet?. So it would seem that the key point is who are these toilets intended to be accessible to? If a RADAR key is needed, then fairly apparent they were intended to be accessible to disabled people, so not really for others to use? If they have a baby changing station, then clearly intended to be accessible to people changing babies. For the others, it seems a bit of a grey area to me.

While there seems to be a broad consensus here from disabled parents and parents of disabled children that accessible toilets should only be for disabled people, when I received my disability equality training from two disabled people from a centre for independent living, their view was much more relaxed, and they made it clear that they had no problem with non-disabled people using an empty accessible loo when other loos were full. A lot of the thrust of the lobbying done by the Disabled People?s Movement has been to make the point that it is not just disabled people who face barriers from society, so, for example, mums with pushchairs benefit from ramps, accessible public transport and so on.

I just wanted to flag that there are other opinions out there. As others have said, the disabled vs non-disabled tone of some of the posts does sadden me. And if we think about our ageing population, with already more over 65s than under 16s, it?s pretty clear there are going to need to be a lot more accessible loos available if we are not going to see a lot more disabled people who have issues around urgency of access - rather than necessarily needing the extra space that the original post seems to be about ? being unable to confidently go out in public. It?s sounding as if the current system only just about works because there aren?t many disabled people out and about, which is a) a pretty sad reflection of the curtailed lives that some disabled people still lead and b) likely to be changing dramatically over the coming years, whatever mums with prams do. I think that?s something we should all be concerned about, no? And if as a fringe benefit mums with prams can have a bit more dignity and comfort, surely nobody would begrudge that?

I do agree with your last parapgraph:I think more toilets that are acdesible is the key.

As for curtailed lives- yes,we have one,we have no sociallife and without Dh I am allbt housebound. there are massive jumps in disdabilty acceptance but alrgely it has passed us by,partly because of ds1's dx.

Perhaps I am bitter,perhaps I am just very tired indeed. I know if I met someone with a buggy i'd want to help them but I suppose I feel marginalised to the extent that if I don't shout 'here I am'then I cease to exist, because you canot see me and mine. We'renot visible, we'renot having a dx that fits any criteria and there'snobody out there to help us at all. It's me,a Dh who is constantly about to break under it all and the boys. Heck i'm so used to it one of them (not my precious DH LOL- he's lovely) tried to strangle me today and I wasn't even surprised.

perhaps I am not someone people should look to for a balanced argument, but I am an example of what happens when society categorises anyting and leaves a huge chunk if disability as not needing support by definition and not seeing behind the labels.

I see what you're saying Peachy, but if you had to wait outside the disabled loo, because it was engaged due to another disabled person using it, it would still be engaged right?
I will think differently about it in the future, but if (as I generally do) happen to be out and about with a 3 year old (also busting for a wee) and a sleeping baby in a pushchair, I will choose to use the best loo for the job.
The big one with access, if the smaller ones don't allow it.
I have pee'd with the toilet door open many times with pushchair wedged in the entrance...I think everyone would rather I used a closed disabled loo than see my bits

Very interesting post Helen31. You're right, buses and ramps allow the world to be more accessible not just to people using wheelchairs. But it's worth remembering that there is a huge difference walking around a town with a child in a pushchair and moving around in a wheelchair.

I can fold my pushchair up, I can carry my baby/small child in a sling, I can even pull the pram up a flight of 6 stairs or so. Or someone can help me carry the pram up. You can't do this if you are using a wheelchair. My movement has never been inhibited by having a small child, or even three small children. But my friend who uses a wheelchair is regularly unable to move around the town as she would like to be able to.

helen's post sums up my feelings about this issue too.

I use a disabled toilet with my DD's & also if there is no-one else around.

I think opinion is split on this, so agree to disagree.

I seem to be suffering from some strange form of amnesia. I honestly cannot recall ever being out and about on my own with the buggy, and needing a wee. I have never tried to take a buggy into a toilet or used the end cubicle with the buggy just outside the door, or taken it into a disabled loo with me. And having read this thread, it seems that I'm in a vanishingly small minority!

I do have to say, though, I cannot imagine that I could ever have managed to go to the loo with one of the dses tucked under my arm - what with being overweight and none too bendy or agile, I think I would have ended up dropping the baby or falling over! I am in awe at those mums who can do this.

On a more serious note, as others have said, the central issue seems to be that there isn't sufficient provision of accessible toilets for parents with children. Perhaps there's less motivation amongst parents to campaign for accessible toilets because we need them for a finite time, whereas a disabled person's need for disabled access toilets is likely to last a long time.

I have been studying toilets with interest since this thread. Yesterday I went somewhere where the ladies toilets were in a very narrow corridor with cubicles on both sides. There was no way I could have taken the buggy in there without blocking toilets. So I would have had to wait for both end toilets to be free so that I could go for a wee with the buggy outside the door. That would have blocked up both toilets for some time when there are only 7 toilets. Or I could have just used the dual use disabled/parents toilet.

the only time I can immediately think of having done the juggling act is in aeroplane loos. Which in turn made me wonder how the physically disabled manage to use the toilets on a flight? They are small and poky enough even if you don't have restrictions on your mobility - and I can't think that I've ever seen grab rails or anything in there either.

Peachy, your post really saddened me. What would help? Is it just general public opinion that is the problem (because the disability isn't visible?? something else?) or do the official support channels not cover your ds either?

desert I didnt mean to sadden anyone sorry.DS has a dx that sw consider the last degree of severity before help is given iyswim.We wereaqssessed and have 4 assessments saying 'not in need of help as mum is intelligent and capable'or somesuch.

Thing is ds is exceptionally violent and doesnb't fit the classic definition of his DX (which is Aspergers). DS3 has fullASD but is easier tocare for and as we were assessed before he was diagnosed we cant be again even though ds fit the criteria.

There's not a lot that would help anyway. All we really wanted was some aggression support for DS1 and access to a secure holiday club for the two SN ones as dh works nights and two screaming stimming kids alongside the other boys (we have 4 boys total) keeps him awake.

If there was a scheme where parents with twokids with lower rate mobility could get a blue badge as well that'd help: its one thing clinging to ds3'sreins as we cross a car park, quite another pushing a buggy and holding onto ds1 and watching sd2 as well LOL.

We will get there though; one day.ATM ds3 got his finaldx only a few weeks ago and that takes a while to adjust to, usually a year fromwhat i've seen.DS3 regressed a few months after ds1'sdx so we;'reemerging from arough time and just starting to rebuild everything. I finally maanged to fid a toddler group in the city (cant go to the ones locally as theres always a risk someone has a vhild who ds1 hurt) and that will help,just getting out and meeting people. Finsishing Uni last year was a jolt too as it took away the social aspect but school has offered me some voluntary stuff- that'll help

you don't need to apologise, if I knew you I would tell you not to be so daft . I just found it very sad that in the 21st century in the UK a family should be left struggling like that.

doesn't sound like a lot to ask to me.

Thought of this thread today when I had to hold a whopping 2 stone 4 lbs 2.7 year old DS whilst doing a wee. It was much easier the last time I did it with a dainty 12 month old!

Peachy, are you sure you can't get a blue badge? Ds has one and only gets low-rate mobility (actually during my one and only visit by a social worker I was told we should have high-rate but I've chickened out of doing an appeal). Have you got a SW or doctor who could write you a supportive letter stressing the safety aspect of trying to manage your ds's when you are out? I was a bit worried when I had to renew the badge as our HV had done the original one for us, but in the bit of the form where it asks how far ds can walk without help, I put that he cannot walk any distance outdoors without constant close supervision, which seemed to do the trick (and is true btw. He can walk but would no doubt be straight under a bus if I didn't hang on to him).

You might find this interesting, especially:- "If your child receives the higher rate mobility component of Disability Living Allowance (DLA) then entitlement to a blue badge should be automatic. However, higher rate mobility DLA can be hard to obtain for people with autism as it is primarily concerned with severe physical problems with walking. It is possible, though, to apply for a blue badge if your child receives the lower rate of the mobility component of DLA, or even no DLA mobility award at all."

Maybe I'm Being Unreasonable, but I can't slog through 723 posts to get the actual gist of the argument. Read enough to see that some are furious at the idea of an able person, although with babies, prams, toddlers, etc using a facility for the disabled.

I would never, ever park in a disabled parking spot but have often used the disabled loos when out with baby in pram & 2-3yr old because I don't want my dc snatched or for the toddler to run away. So can I, in a sense, consider myself "disabled" by dc? Probably most of you would say "NO, you selfish bint!" Fine.

Fortunately, where I live, you have to ask the nearest shop for this key & return it when finished. The changing facilities are almost always located in the disabled loo & if not, there's a loo/changing room designated for parents with young children. Ikea is a fine example of this forward thinking.

Or you could just take them into the cubicle with you avoiding any possibility of them running off or being snatched.

BTW belgo when you have squished the 2 dds and ds with you into a cubicle did you hold ds or one of the dds?