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Original poster

To tell my son that he doesn't have to pray?

226 replies

SweetAudrina · 10/02/2009 18:51

DS goes to a normal state primary. Not a religious school.

Yet the kids are forced to pray a Christian prayer every assembly. Even the athiest/muslim/hindu kids etc.

I have told DS he doesn't have to pray but he should sit still and quiet whilst other people do. However today he was told off for not praying!!

If the teacher asks me about it (as DS told her I said he didn't have to) am I going to come across a "difficult" parent who is just trying to cause trouble or am I justified in thinking that kids shouldn't be FORCED to pray?

OP posts:
piscesmoon · 12/02/2009 22:08

To get back to OP I think she should go into school and discuss it, I think it is all a misunderstanding and that her DC is not being forced to pray but is being asked to sit still and respect what others are doing-as he is very young I don't expect he makes the distinction.

tumtumtetum · 12/02/2009 22:10

Would be hilarious if OP came back on and revealed her son is 17

barnsleybelle · 12/02/2009 22:10

Dilly... what a sensible post.

TiggyR · 12/02/2009 22:14

First of all Barnsleybelle I am all for allowing my children to choose for themselves, which is why I have one child out of three who is on the 'religious spectrum'and has dragged me round half the churches in France, just because he likes them! I do not try to courage him, it is not my place to, nor my desire to. Though as he gets older he is questioning things more and growing out of God in the same way that he has grown out of Father Christmas and the tooth fairy. I would never say to my children categorically there is no god, or god is real. I would only ever encourage them to question what they see and feel and ask themselves what makes sense and feels right for them. And they can change their minds at any time. I am absolutely not anti-Christian or anti-religion. I am extremely open minded and receptive to all things spiritual. I just object to the state's assumption that we need a religion of one kind or another to keep us on the straight and narrow.

Secondly, you say what would the OP do if she objected to history lessons - pull him out? Well that's the whole point is it not? This is not an RE lesson, much less a Christianity lesson. It is school assembly. An inclusive meeting in which school news is shared, and wider issues are discussed. Nothing more, mothing less.

Re: church schools. I think you will find if you care to look into the statistics (I'm just guessing but it's a strong hunch) that they generally have better results for the same reasons that schools in very middle class areas have better results. There is inevitably more parental involvement and support, fewer children from first generation ethnic minorities who may arrive in school with language or social disadvantages, greater autonomy in the running of the school, etc. I don't think it is God's divine intervention that gets them better Sats results, do you?

barnsleybelle · 12/02/2009 22:22

Oh dear, i have not for one second suggested that it is "god's divine intervention" that makes it a good school. My dh would laugh me out of the house should i suggest it!
I merely think that the christian values that are taught and instilled in the children and the fact that there is a definate community feel to the school makes it such a good choice for us.

I have never, ever tried to force my beliefs on anyone. My dh is atheist and neither of us tries to convince the other. It is simply a difference of opinion. For that reason our children deserve the same. The chance to make up their own mind.

My ONLY concern has been that the op has forced her belief on her ds and told him not to pray rather than discuss it with the school first.

I accept totally that schools should not force religion on children, but neither should parents force their opinions either.

piscesmoon · 12/02/2009 22:28

I agree barnsleybelle, just because you are an atheist doesn't mean that your DC is going to be, or being a Christian doesn't mean your DC will be. I think they should be exposed to lots of different views and then make up their own mind. Even when they are young no one should be telling them what to think-discussing beliefs is entirely different.

barnsleybelle · 12/02/2009 22:30

oh piscesmoon, thank you... thought i was on my own!

TiggyR · 12/02/2009 22:33

Barnsleybelle - I was being flippant and a tad sarcastic about the divine intervention thing! sorry! I know that's not what you meant. But any caring, morally sound ethos where the children are supported will get good results, if the pupil demographic is an easy one to work with. It really doesn't matter whether it's a Christian ethos! To say that kind of implies that non-Christian schools do not encourage and support their pupils in their quest to to be hard working and successful and good. As we both know, so many fundamental Christian values are the values many decent right-thinking people (including those of many other religions, and those of no religion at all - morality and decency doesn't need to be owned or labelled, it's available to all who seek it). Why the need to make the distinction? Anyway, I'm out of this now - I need to go to bed. Night night! (and God bless )

barnsleybelle · 12/02/2009 22:34

Night night tiggy, nice post.

TiggyR · 12/02/2009 22:37

Sorry, just wanted to add, when my typo said I said I try not to 'courage' my son in his interest in God, I meant I try not to DIS -courage him, not I try not to ENC-courage him! Just realised my post could have been taken in completely the wrong way!

Helen31 · 12/02/2009 23:02

Barnsleybelle - thanks for clarifying that we agree that schools shouldn't force religion on children. I still think that what parents choose to teach their children is a different issue, and it is up to each parent to decide how they approach it (i.e. fine for them to take the children to church/mosque/synagogue every week if that is what they wish to do). Yes, it may well mess with their children's heads, but that's the parents' prerogative, isn't it?

onagar · 12/02/2009 23:26

Even though I'm an atheist I agree with Helen that it's up to parents if they want to teach their children religion at home or in church. The thought makes me wince, but it's a parents right to bring up their child their own way. I also believe parents (not the school) should choose their clothes, food etc. Too much has been taken away from parents as it is.

Of course the school will teach them facts and the history and science etc will eventually clash with the religion, but that's fair enough and then the child (probably a teenager by then) can choose which to accept.

There · 13/02/2009 03:20

I went to a Catholic school and we had morning prayers but not once was I told I had to join in. I'd be outraged. It makes a farce of religion expecting children to say words that mean nothing to them. I respect other people's religions too much to bring it down to the level of just needing to recite words.
Hit a raw nerve!

piscesmoon · 13/02/2009 07:26

It is the parents right to bring up their DC the way that they want. However I see nothing wrong with them being exposed to different views. It is wrong for the school to force beliefs, they should qualify it with 'Christians believe'but equally parents shouldn't say 'there is no God, it is mumbo jumbo', they should say 'I believe that there is no God, it is mumbo jumbo'-two completely different things. Neither should be telling the child what to believe, that is completely up to the child.

Helen31 · 13/02/2009 09:27

Hi piscesmoon - I think you're talking about an excellent approach to parenting that we can all aspire to, but it's not possible (or desirable?) to police/enforce. Whereas a change to the law and practice in schools is possible and desirable, iyswim.

cory · 13/02/2009 09:32

barnsleybelle on Thu 12-Feb-09 21:40:09
"But again, if you don't like what the school does then don't send them there"

In our city there is a choice at primary level between faith schools and state schools. And as several posters have pointed out, a state school is obliged to provide non-denominational Christian worship. So exactly where are the atheists going to send their children? There is nowhere.

At secondary level in our area, things are even more focused on Christianity. My experience suggests that the majority of the population in our part of town are non-believers. Yet recently, the running of the only catchment secondary was taken away from the council and given to a Christian group.

The result has been disastrous: discipline appears non-existent, children are often left without any teacher for a lesson, they are learning nothing, parents are in despair, the head and 19 staff resigned in the course of a single week. The only alternative for most people is the Catholic school.

We were lucky to get dd into another catchment school as she is disabled and the management of the Christian school refused to give any details of how they were going to support her disability. (They were also unable to give any details of the curriculum in the week before the application deadline. The information meeting was all about the thoughts of the leader of this particular Christian group- it felt very much like an evangelist prayer meeting.)

Of course, not all Christian schools are disaster areas like this one. But if I were a fervent believer in atheism, then I would find it disastrous that there was no alternative for my children.

CoteDAzur · 13/02/2009 21:46

happywomble - re "cote d'azur - telling your DCs christianity (or other established religion) is a load of nonsense is also indoctrination"

What makes you think I say that to DC?

"you should give your dcs a chance to listen to all sides of the story and then let them form their own beliefs"

I "should", no less

If it's alright with you, I will not tell DC any religious stories at all, definitely not in a formal & organized setting like school, and especially not when they are still little.

Later on, if they are interested, they can read up on whatever religion they are curious about.

TheFallenMadonna · 13/02/2009 21:50

They may of course choose both faith and science onagar

TiggyR · 14/02/2009 13:55

As happy coincidence would have it there is an article in today's Times on exactly this subject. I would say that I agree with the write entriely although she comes across as a little less pro-secular than me. I'll post back with a link if I can find it/be bothered!

Helen31 · 14/02/2009 18:05

Here is the link - www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article5697694.ece

tumtumtetum · 14/02/2009 19:07

Thanks Helen.

Interesting to see that the vast bulk of the comments are saying that there should be no place in schools for religious worship.

Helen31 · 14/02/2009 19:17

My thoughts too - made me an even happier bunny than I already was today (DH has spoilt me rotten and is now making dinner).

tumtumtetum · 14/02/2009 19:24

I have been spoilt too

No rest for the wicked!

pinkyredrose · 19/02/2009 00:36

Why do you celebrate Christmas if you're not a Christian?

cory · 19/02/2009 08:27

Pinky, the yuletide festival was being celebrated in Northern Europe long before the Christian missionaries got here (and a festival with similar traits to Christmas was celebrated by the Romans).

In fact, the reason the Catholic church decided to put Jesus' birthday at this time of year, was because they realised it would be easier to convert the pagans if they were allowed to keep their party. Many of today's Christmas celebrations are survivals from the pagan past.

So you can hardly blame the non-Christians for not allowing the Christians to monopolise the feast.