To tell my son that he doesn't have to pray?

[SweetAudrina]

DS goes to a normal state primary. Not a religious school.

Yet the kids are forced to pray a Christian prayer every assembly. Even the athiest/muslim/hindu kids etc.

I have told DS he doesn't have to pray but he should sit still and quiet whilst other people do. However today he was told off for not praying!!

If the teacher asks me about it (as DS told her I said he didn't have to) am I going to come across a "difficult" parent who is just trying to cause trouble or am I justified in thinking that kids shouldn't be FORCED to pray?

My children attend a local church school and despite dh having no religious beliefs he was happy for them to attend the school as it gets fantastic results. The children are happy and well adjusted. Although there is a reasonable amount of religious study, we have found that the children are taught to care about each other and look out for each other. The school is very family orientated. The church services we attend are wonderful and i defy anyone not to "well up" at the christingle each year.
Dh and i attended the same schools, he doesn't believe and i do. We heard all the stories and decided for ourselves as we got older. What annoys me about the op is that this is about what she believes and not her son. Telling him to ignore the prayers without discussing it with the teacher first will simply give the wrong message out.

Message withdrawn

barnsley that's lovely for you.

I think what you are missing is that some people find the act of christian worship extremely offensive. And some people who just find it ludicrous (like me) and would never send their child to a faith school, no matter how good it was, because they don't believe in it.

All well and good to say the children should have a try and see what they think, but would you say a child of vegetarian parents should be happy to let their child eat meat at school every day? That a child of left-wing liberals should have to watch margaret thatcher making speeches every day? Would you say that the child of a pair of scientists should be happy to have their child told that evolution doesn't exist every day?

tumtumtetum..well less than 50% of the population voted labour and we have had to put up with them running the country from 97 till whenever they call an election....and yes I am offended by most of their policies.

I can't see why the children of a vegetarian can't eat meat at school - should be up to the child whether they want a veggie lunch or a meat lunch when away from the home.

Yes but you're not forced to sit in a hall and chant "gordon brown in king" every day are you.

And we are talking about children - not adults or even teenagers. If children were allowed to make their own choices lunch wouldn't be meat, or veg, but sweeties and choccy biccies.

And I am stunned that you think it's fine for a child of veggie parents to be fed meat every day at school. So then it would be OK for small jewish and muslim children to be fed pork?

Well there is a difference with muslim children being fed pork as that goes against their religion.

I don't think children need a completely free lunch choice but if they are having school dinners why shouldn't they choose between veggie and meat ..both are nutritious. If the meal is eaten at school the veggie parent isn't having to stand over raw meet to cook it are they.

Happywomble I think I may be misunderstanding your point, as it sounds as if you are saying that it is up to the state/school to decide how to parent children. I thought that was the parents' job. But I may have misunderstood.

So, people's religious beliefs should be respected. That's good.

But not their beliefs about anything else?

And, from a religious perspective, if they are deeply and committedly athiest, that doesn't count?

WRT this myth that all parents want to send their DC to faith schools: many don't (me for one, refused to apply to the faith school for DS despite it being the nearest school), and many others don't actually have a choice, because the only school in their area is a faith school - though these tend to be the faith schools that are average or even underperforming. The faith schools with good results are the ones in middle class areas which have barely-legal selection policies to keep out the poor kids, the SN kids and the ones who are not native English speakers.

Well said tumtumtetum.

Re the vegetarian issue. The same, i think the child should be allowed to try everything and then decide when they want if they want to cut out meat.

What you are missing is that i think the op was wrong to tell her child not to pray without informing the school first of her decision, and discussing it with them first.

I do believe that parents do the parenting and not the teachers. I do not however consider parenting to be about forcing my or dh's beliefs upon them.

You don't like what the school is doing, make an apt and discuss it, don't just tell your child "oh well, mummy doesn't agree with that so don't bother"

helen31 - Of course it is not up to the state to parent children. What makes you think I am saying this?

I trust my childrens c of e primary school to provide their formal education and to give them a healthy lunch. At home I try to give them a balanced diet. What on earth is your problem with that?

Oh come on, isn't let the children decide for themselves just a lazy way to back up your argument? We are talking about primary school age children here. Saying that children of this age should be even able to choose is putting a huge pressure and responsibility on them. I personally do not want my child made to choose until he or she is able and informed enough to make a decision.

I find it interesting that 80% of Secondary schools do not follow this law about collective worship, yet primary schools do.

I personally find it offensive that my child could be expected to pray at school. If she decides that she wants to find out more about a religion I am happy to support her in exploring that as part of her learning about herself and her spirituality.

I distinctly remember in my non-denominational very multicultural/religious London primary school in the 80's I was not praying when we had the local church come in to do the assembly. I refused to put my hands together because my mum had told me I didn't have to pray because that was not our religion. I certainly was not doing anything wrong or acting up. I got told to get my hands together right now or else I would be going to hell with the devil and it would serve me right.

"Lot was a good man who also did some bad stuff"
Yes, such a good man that god saved his life when he killed the others for being sinners.

Nowadays he'd be in prison and then on the sex offenders register when he came out.

Now you know why I don't want my kids being forced to worship god.

barnsley this is getting silly now.

You are saying that you do not try to instill your values, morals and beliefs in your children? I don't believe you. You really say, well darling, some people are nice, and some are nasty, why don't you try out both and see which you prefer?

Re the vegetarian issue. People who believe it is wrong to eat the flesh of animals believe so as fervently as religious people believe in god. Yet they are not allowed to pass that belief to their children? And they should be OK with their children being fed meat every day?

The whole point of small children is that they are guided by their parents and other (hopefully) sensible people as they are nieve, gullible and often rather easily led. That surely is that nature of small children.

Telling a child that they can sit quietly while others are worshipping is not disruptive. Telling the child off because they are not saying a prayer to a god they have been brought up not to believe in is plain wrong.

Of course i instill values and teach my children right from wrong and what is the socially acceptable way to behave.

Re the religious beliefs. I am a christian, my dh is an aethiest. We live harmoniously because we respect each others belief. Neither of us have forced our beliefs to either of our children. When they talk ask questions we answer them honestly that some people believe and some don't. Re meat. I would never tell my child that "meat is murder" etc etc. I might say that i prefer not to eat meat but that they can try it and decide for themselves, just as if my child decided they wanted to be vegetarian and i'm not i would respect their choice.

I don't think i'm being silly just because i don't agree with you.

All hail tumtumtetum!

Happywomble - I don't have any problem with that for your children. But I do for mine, as my values and beliefs seem to be a bit different to yours. It's lucky for you that the state seems to favour your preferred option. Me, I try to give the National Secular Society and British Humanist Association the same level of financial support that your average churchgoer gives in a year and write to my muppet of a Tory MP every so often.

People are campaigning on the issue of inclusive assemblies - see the BHA's website www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/216.

barnsley I'm not saying you're silly, just that I am having trouble understanding your argument as to why these small children, of all faiths, should be forced to worship the christian god every single day.

It's not like they're being taught lots of things about lots of religions so as to be exposed to ideas which will eventually enable them to make decisions about what fits for them. They are being forced to worship a god which for many of them is not their god.

An eg would be, that as an athiest I take my DD to Synagogue every single week and get her to pray, and say it's because I want her to have a balanced view. If I really wanted her to have a balanced view I would take her to a different place of worship every week, and some weeks she could have science lessons instead.

Oh please drop the vegetarian example, it's driving me mad. Let's save that one for another thread.

pussynomore i thought that was an excellent analogy!

There's also the accord coalition, campaigning for a more inclusive approach to religion within schools. If you're interested, you can find out more here - www.accordcoalition.org.uk/index.php/declaration-of-aims/

Not surprisingly, given some of the thoughtful contributions here from practising christians who don't like the idea of people devaluing prayer by just pretending, the campaign is supported by a number of religious groups and individuals.

But again, if you don't like what the school does then don't send them there, or at least see the head and say " I'm planning on telling my son not to pray".

Barnsleybelle - you are of course right about seeing the head. But the first part of your comment missees the point that there is no legal school that would meet the needs of some of us parents.

In a state primary school no way should he be forced to pray when it is not within his family values/culture. However, depends on the prayer. Regardless of religion it is appropriate to pray for people less fortunate than ourselves and is also a way of educating children about other childrens plight, to develop moral and social conscience and improve humanity. A prayer is just a wish to some people, not a request to God iyswim. i.e. I might pray that no more people die in the fires in Australia and for their families to find strength, but it is a wish as I do not believe one way or the other in religion per se iyswim.

Do non denominational state primary schools usually advertise what their interpretation of the rules on "act of daily worship" are though?

If not then you can't make an informed choice when choosing a school, as I'm sure most people would not even imagine that the lord's prayer would be said every morning at assembly, and so would never thnk to ask.

You can choose not to send your child to a religious school but I'd thought non-denominational state were safe. Now I know better.

Basically you can't not like what the school does because you don't know what the school does. How will all the other non-christian parents feel if and when they find out their little kiddies have been busily worshipping the christian god every day?

It's just not on.